itchy trigger finger (dosing recommendations please)

[Travis]

This ZEO stuff seems to have some magnetic field around that is sucking me in. I'm really thinking aobut giving it a go. The only thing that has held me back thus far is cost. I would like to get some dosing recommendations for my tank so I can calculate how much this stuff is going to cost to run. I guess the way I am starting to think is that I've already invested so much money in my tank and livestock that it shouldn't hurt to spend a little more if I can get a lot more out of my corals with this system. I've seen a lot of pictures of beautiful ZEO tanks and they tell me that the system does work, along with diligent husbandry practices. So please recommend a dosing schedule for my system.

1. Gross water volume of your complete system (incl. sump etc.)
280 tank, 130 sump

2. Net water volume (incl. sump etc.)
275

3. Are you using a CaCO2 reactor or other technique
MRC CR-6 Ca reactor with ARM media and some crushed sps from a tank crash in the past

4. Are you using a PO4 reactor (how long, how long ago, etc.)
heck no

5. Are you using Ozone
nada

6. Are you using UV
nope

7. What skimmer are you using (type, rated water volume)
BK 400

8. What are your actual PO4 and NO3 levels
NO3 has always been undetectable with Salifert
Just got a Hanna PO4 meter 2 weeks ago...
Day 1 = .06
Day 3 = .04
Day 6 = .03
Day 10 = .04

9. What are your actual Ca, Alk and Mg levels
All via Salifert...
Alk = 9.9 dKH
Ca = 490
Mg = 1560 (long story but bringing it down)

10. What filtration method do you use (refugium, DSB, Miracle Mud, etc.)
BB w/ 75x turnover

11. Type of light (Watt, color temp, how old, etc.)
3 x 250w XM 10k's about 5 months old
2 x 160w VHO actinic about 8 months old

12. What corals do you keep
Almost all Acropora with a few Seriatoporas, a few Moniporas, and a Pocillopora. Also 1 red chalice (don't know scientific name), which is the only coral that is not a sps.

13. Tissue color (light or dark)
Depends on the coral I guess. Overall I would say dark, which is most likely due to the zooxanthellae levels. Almost all of my corals are captive raised frags and they are all colored up niceley (but I think they could be better with ZEO). Then I have 2 wild stags that are mostly brown for a year now but I fell that ZEOvit could bring them around. They have nice tissue color but their polyps cover all the tissue and it is the polyps themselves that are brown (polyps were not brown when aquired).

14. How long has the tank been running
17 months

15. Why do you want to use the ZEOvit system
I have a couple small patches of Bryopsis that I would like to see disappear. I would like to see some of my corals get lighter due to less zoox density and bring out better colors in them with the various ZEO supps. I would also like to see the 2 wild stags I have regain their natural coloration. Lastly, I would like for my corals to "pop" more like a lot of the ZEO tanks I've seen. Basically, I just want to take things to the next level.

16. Any supplemental dosing (type, amount, why, etc.)
Never since the tank was started. I do add Ca chloride if the Ca level needs a quick raising, baking soda if I need to bump the alk, or Mg chloride hexahydrate if the Mg level needs a boost. For trace element replenishment I do on average a 10-20% water change every week, which is also when I siphon any detritus in the tank or sump.

17. Live rock (how much, how old, etc.)
Only maybe 150 or so pounds from Fiji, Solomon Islands, and Marshall Islands. Some of the Fiji has been with me for over 5 years. The rest was aquired 17 months ago. All rock in this tank was cooked for 2 months.

18. Any present problems
A couple small bryopsis patches here and there. I pull them every couple weeks and scrub the area with a toothbrush but they always come back. Each patch is a couple inches in diameter. I also get bryopsis that grows in my overflow teeth.

19. Problem description (tissue loss tips, tissue loss base, diatom bloom, algae, etc.)
No coral problems. I rarely have problems with my corals. I clean algae off my aquarium pane weekly. Coralline growth has been a problem recently. I will spend 3 hours scraping my front pane only to have it 90% covered again 4 weeks later. But this has seemed to start slowing down as of late.

20. What test kit do you use (how old, recently switched, etc.)
Salifert for everything except salinity (refractometer), PH (milwaukee meter), temp (Ranco), and PO4 (Hanna). Test kits are all less than a few months old. PH probe is 5 months old and calibrated monthly.

21. Present dosing, amounts and intervals (ZEOvit, ZEObak, ZEOfood, ZEOstart, ZEOspur2, etc.)
NA

22. Other water parameters and water stability (salinity, temp, etc.)
Temp = 78-79
PH = 8.1-8.3
Salinity = 35 ppt
My Ca and Mg are always stable and within range but are elevated currently due to a recent overaddition of Ca chloride and Mg chloride hexahydrate. I usually run the Ca around 430, Alk around 9, and Mg around 1250. I do realize the Alk needs to run around 6-8 with ZEO.

[Aged Salt]

Hi Travis, you've been toying around with using ZEOvit method for some time now, & there's no better time than right now You will be successful with ZEOvit as you have had successful SPS experience & keen observatory powers needed to maintain Acropora. I predict you will need much less maintenance to run your reef than with any previous method. The ZEOvit method presents a "balanced" approach to nutrient lowering while coral feeding via the "mulm" from the reactor & the zeo-supplements, supplying the energy necessary for our corals to be able to use their chromoprotein sysnthesis--coloring their tissue. These truly work in synergistic manner. With the ZEOvit method as you've mentioned, reduce & stabilize the parms to guidelines. This is utmost important. For your system, I'll start you out a little slower as your corals will need to adjust to the lower KH[6-8]:

1)place 1 ltr. of K-Z carbon in a mesh bag, passively in your sump, kneaded daily & exchanged monthly. I strongly recommend their carbon as IME it does allow coral colors to brighten.
2)place 2 ltrs zeolites in a zeo-reactor with a flow rate of ~200gph. We'll use more zeolites with the 1st stone exchange. It's important that this flow rate be on spot. Cycle the stones on & off at 3hr. intervals. A inline check-valve maybe necessary to prevent back-siphoning when the reactor is off. Clean the zeolites 2-3 x's/day about 5-10 reps each time when the reactor is "on". Exchange the stones in 4wks. & post up for new recommendations.
3)dose 8 drops Bak & Food7 EVERY OTHER DAY for 2wks. then dose 10 drops each 2x's/wk. Dose these near the reactor pump when it's "on" & turn off your skimmer for 60min after dosing these. ZeoBak[& Coral-Vitalizer] is refrigerated.
4)dose .7ml Start2 3x's/day near the reactor's pump when "on" It is not necessary to turn off the skimmer when just dosing Start2.
5)dose AAHC 6-8 drops & C-V 15-20 drops daily into the display area. Dose 12 drops PIF & 4 drops Fe 2x's/wk. All of these will be necessary once your Hanna is lower to bring out the "pop" in colors. If you do not use Seachem's salt, consider K-Balance at 1ml/100g net/day. The Spurs can be useful when you're deeper into Phase 3.

Travis, ask any questions, Bob

[Travis]

Bob, thanks for taking the time to spell this all out for me. Your contributions are much appreciated.

Could you more clearly define how to run carbon "passively"? Is it just letting the bag float around in the sump? Can I fill up the bag and stick it in beteween one of my sump "under" baffles? My baffle area is large and this would put the carbon in direct flow but there would still be a lot of area for the water to flow around the bag of carbon so not all the water would be forced through the carbon.

I am pretty anal about my carbon usage and for the past several months I run 1 cup at a time and change it out weekly. Would I gain any benefits by doing the same with the KZ carbon. For example, I would use 1/4 liter of carbon changed out weekly. Or would this just be unnecessary work? Also, someone mentioned to me that the KZ carbon also contains some NO3 adsorbing beads. Is this correct?

When do you recommend I start the AAHC, CV, PIF, and Fe? I was planning on starting the AAHC and CV right away to help my corals make the transition to the low nutrient environment. But I don't want to be using any additives too early if I would get any benefits from them. Would there be any benefit in dosing the PIF and Fe right away or do you only get the benefits of these once you have hit 0's across the board?

As for dosing supps in front of the reactor feed pump, could you explain this a little more? My sump water level runs at around 9.5". I'm guessing the reactor pump will be sitting on the bottom. I figure that if I just add the drops to the surface of the water above the pump it will disperse and not really feed the reactor much more than the whole tank. Would it be best to take a length of PVC and stick one end down by the reactor pump inlet so there is a bit of suction and then do my dosing into the PVC tube?

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions.

[Aged Salt]

Travis, the little white beads in K-Z carbon do absorb N03's but this is not the main benefit, IMO, with using K-Z carbon. K-Z carbon is very fine granules which is helpful in it's function & yet it's not too strong an absorber of our traces. I noticed a difference gradually after changing to this carbon after ~ 2 mos. Place the carbon bag in a low flow area of your sump if possible. Again with the K-Z brand, this is not important even in fast flowing sumps. Yes it will supend freely in your sump[attach the bag via a thick rubberband to a piece of LR or PVC section. For now exchange monthly but knead the carbon bag daily. Later, we can delve into active canister use of carbon but initially, that might be too much in the adaptation phase.

I agree with your opinion for using AAHC & C-V. The PIF/Fe, etc. can be used later. I recommended them in your special case, as your nutrients are already not too high, therefore, their use would have some immediate effect on coloration, but again, these can wait.

Don't worry about dosing the zeo-components exactly into the reactor--just dose them in front of the reactor's pump in your sump, giving the stones the "first pass". Do be sure the reactor pump is "on" when dosing the components. Bob

[Travis]

Thanks again Bob. I guess it didn't take me long to make my decision. I have decided to give this ZEO stuff a try.

How fine is the KZ carbon? I want to make sure that my filter bags pores are small enough to keep it in. I don't remember for sure but I think my filter bag is 800 micron.

I will slowly bring my alkalinity and calcium down over the next couple weeks by putting my CO2 on a timer so it turns off for a few hours per day. Just enough to bring the levels down slowly. I will then turn it back on 24/7 once I get down around 7-8 dKH and 400-450 Ca. Any suggestions for lowering my Mg besides water changes? It might take me a few water changes to get it down. Will it be ok to start the basic 4 while the Mg is still elevated?

Ok, now for supplements. I want to get enough of everything to last me at least 3 months. Here is what I'm thinking. Let me know if I'm getting too much or too little of anything.
KZ carbon = 3 liters
ZEOlith = 8 bags
ZEObak = 10ml
ZEOfood7 = 50ml
ZEOstart = 250ml
CV = 100ml
AAHC = 50ml
PIF = 50ml
Fe = 50ml

I may wait a month or so before dosing any PIF or Fe but I would like to have it on hand for when I'm ready. I will wait until my tank has reached phase 3 before I get the spur. As for salt, I think I'm going to go with Seachem after I'm done with my current bucket of Oceanic. I had problems with inconsistent batches but it sounds like they have fixed that problem. They have shown that they care about their customers and I like to support companies that show that type of attitude. So I will probably try their salt some more and see if it is more consistent. If not, I may switch over to 50/50 IO/Oceanic. So for now, I shouldn't need to worry about K-balance, correct?

[G.Alexander]

Travis, I can not tell you which size of filter bag to use but I use a nylon socks which work perfect.

The safest way to decrease the Mg concentration would be water changes with a well balanced salt. So you could do a 15 % water change weekly, until the level is around 1300 mg. While you decrease the KH & Ca output of the CaCO2 reactor, the Mg level should also decrease slowly. Personally I would recommend to start the system if the Mg concentration is around 1350 – 1400 mg as a maximum. This should be possible with the changes and take around 4 weeks.

While CoralVitalizer has a shelf live of about 6 month, if kept refrigerated, also the 50 ml bottle should be more than enough for the first 3 month.

As the first zeolite change take place after 4 weeks, followed by a 6 – 8 week cycle 6 bags of zeovit (zeolite) should be enough for the fist 3 month.

Iron & potassium would not be needed for the first weeks so I would recommend to order it if your system is running in phase 3 together with ZeoSpur2 & MacroElements if needed.

As long you do not observe the indicator for a potassium leak the product does not need to be dosed, however it could generally help in increasing colouration, basically in phase 3.

G.Alexander

[Aged Salt]

Hi Travis, to follow-up on Alexander's comments, , first the 800 micron bag will allow the K-Z carbon out when kneading so you'll need filter bags with a finer mesh. Adhere to Alexander's advise regarding parms, as I've had users lose corals with Mg>1400 With the first zeolite exchange you will then use 2.75 ltrs of stones in your reactor at a flow rate of 250-275 gph I'm currently using SC-IO-Oceanic at about 1/3 each on my WC's & dosing K-B at 1ml/200g net/day. If SC is not used, then the K-B dosage is 1ml/100g net/day.

Travis, in all honesty, once you dial-in your parms with your CR[btw, I use a Cr 6 dually/ARM] + salt mixture, you'll find ZEOvit will brilliantly color the SPS. The time factor for this does vary, but be patient, be diligent & most important, stay the course, with asking questions along the journey, Bob

[trythechi]

This ZEO stuff seems to have some magnetic field around that is sucking me in. I'm really thinking aobut giving it a go. .

Nice one Travis - will follow this thread with interest.

Please could you keep a photo log of your reef as Zeo has its impact - will help partial Zeo users like myself.

Cheers

Simon

[CCG]

Is one 10ml bottle of bac going to be enough for him?

Colin

[Travis]

While CoralVitalizer has a shelf live of about 6 month, if kept refrigerated, also the 50 ml bottle should be more than enough for the first 3 month.

I wasn't aware that CV had a shelf life. Thanks for pointing that out. I will just go with the 50ml bottle then. With the pricing difference between the small and larger size, you don't really get that much more for your money when going with the larger size anyways.

As the first zeolite change take place after 4 weeks, followed by a 6 – 8 week cycle 6 bags of zeovit (zeolite) should be enough for the fist 3 month.

Ok, I will start with 6 bags.

Iron & potassium would not be needed for the first weeks so I would recommend to order it if your system is running in phase 3 together with ZeoSpur2 & MacroElements if needed.

Sounds good. I will hold off on the Fe and PIF for now to save money on initial startup costs. Once I know my tank is stable in Phase 3 I will order these products. One thing I don't want to be doing is spending money on dosing products when my reef is not ready to benefit from them.

[Travis]

Hi Travis, to follow-up on Alexander's comments, , first the 800 micron bag will allow the K-Z carbon out when kneading so you'll need filter bags with a finer mesh.

Ok, I will order a 300 micron bag. Those are pretty fine and don't allow anything but "dust" to get through. What will be the best size bag to get for 1 liter of the carbon? The options from my drygoods vendor are 4" x 8", 6" x 10", 8" x 12", and 12" x 15".

Adhere to Alexander's advise regarding parms, as I've had users lose corals with Mg>1400

Thanks for the warning guys. I will be sure to hold off on starting the system until I can get my level down to at least 1400.

[Travis]

Nice one Travis - will follow this thread with interest.

Please could you keep a photo log of your reef as Zeo has its impact - will help partial Zeo users like myself.

Cheers

Simon

Yes, I do plan to do that, just as you are doing with Prodibio. I will take the first round of pics in the next couple weeks. That way I have a baseline to judge any changes by.

[Travis]

I need some advice on how to lower my Mg level. First, let me explain how it got to where it is. During the 17 months of this tanks life, it has almost always ran at around 1250 Mg. A few months ago I decided to try Seachem salt and it tested in the low 1100's for Mg. This slowly brought my tank Mg level down into the low 1100's. In larger tanks it is very expensive to raise Mg levels with products from our retailers so I decided to try a more "economical" way. I got a bag of Dead Sea Ice melt on a group order from another club. I followed the directions posted by members that have used this as well as Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley. The directions were to mix 9 cups of the ice melt with 1 cup of Epson salts in 1 gallon of DI water and dose that.
1-20-06, Mg = 1120, 2 cups of supplement added
1-21-06, Mg = 1190, 2 cups of supplement added
1-22-06, Mg = 1250, 2 cups of supplement added
1-24-06, Mg = 1265, 2 cups of supplement added
1-25-06, Mg = 1310, 2 cups of supplement added
1-27-06, Mg = 1370, no more supplement added
1-28-06, Mg = 1560, 90 gallon water change performed (80% Seachem, 20% Oceanic)
1-29-06, Mg = 1560
2-2-06, Mg = 1560, 90 gallon water change performed (100% Oceanic)
2-3-06, Mg = 1560

I checked my Salifert Mg test kit against a friend's and they both read the same. I checked it against my Seachem test kit's reference solution and it tested 130 higher than the reference solution. Seachem claims that their reference solution is verified by the University of Georgia's chemistry lab.

Do I have a faulty test kit or did the DIY Mg supplement that I used really mess up my water chemistry? Any suggestions for bringing it down? I'm going to start running my CO2 to the Ca reactor on a timer to slowly bring down Ca and Alk. We will see if the Mg also falls. I have 100 gallons of water change water made up but it is all Oceanic, which already has elevated Mg levels. Should I invest in some salt that has low Mg levels and do a couple WC's to see if it helps bring it down? My main concern is that:
1)The Mg level continued to rise days after I stopped adding the supplement and then peaked at 1560.
2)I have now performed 2 90 gallon water changes. Both with water that was far lower than 1560 Mg and my tank is still testing at 1560.

[Orion76]

One nice thing about Korallen Zucht Reefer Salt, The magnesium comes in a separate bag so you can leave it out if you have to lower it.

[Aged Salt]

Good point, Timon

Travis, buy either SC or IO & do the WC's with one of these salts. Monitor KH & Ca, as you may need to supplement Ca. Also run your CR a bit slower to hold down the alk which will tend to raise with IO or SC but the Mg level will drop slowly in this manner. I'd recommend 25% WC/wk to speed this process. Bob