Zeovit w/out Zeo Rocks?

[Horace]

I am considering using some of the Zeo supplements but was curious if anyone here has had good success w/out using the Zeo Rocks/reactor. Right now its just not super feasable for me to set that up given a lack of cash flow. Right now my phosphates are down to about .02 as measured by a Hanna. I would think that is pleny low to get good colors etc. If I were to dose Zeo w/out the rocks, which ones should I use? Bac? CV?

[gqjeff]

CV and AAHC would be good for you Kurt.. I sent u a PM also...

Jeff

[scottw]

Hey that is cool, Horace. welcome to zeovit.com, jeff doesnt live to far from you at all, he is a great source for you, being so close, maybe he will allow you to come view his tank in person, so you can see what he is doing, he is doing a Great job!

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

... jeff doesnt live to far from you at all, he is a great source for you, being so close, maybe he will allow you to come view his tank in person, so you can see what he is doing, he is doing a Great job!

I think Horace is already ahead of us in this ... ...

Anyway, GQJeff told me about the zeo system and I have looked into it. Unfortunatly I dont think I can afford to move over to it quite yet. I do see the results of it though. Ive personally seen Jeff's tank and its pretty unreal. Easily the best tank I have seen in a hobiest's home. ...

Extracted from ZeoThread:
New to the site ... (Horace, 1.21.2006)

... Right now my phosphates are down to about .02 as measured by a Hanna. I would think that is pleny low to get good colors etc. If I were to dose Zeo w/out the rocks, which ones should I use? Bac? CV?

The potential for "tweaking" and experimenting with the different aspects/components of ZEOvit methodology is one of the major reasons I became interested in Mr. Pohl's system in the first place. It's tempting just to simply agree with gqjeff, "... CV and AAHC would be good for you ..." and be done with it. Clearly, this is a sound suggestion. And yet, it seems to me that a little broader viewpoint might be useful ... and yours is just too good a question to let pass without taking a stab at it ...

[Warning ... ... meso-rant about to engage ... ... ... ...]

It seems to me that the ZEOvit methodology incorporates several components, each of which is working synergistically with the others. Pull out one of the major components, and "performance" diminishes. This is not to say that there cannot be satisfying/worthwhile/"cost efficient" results by applying individual components "outside of the system" ... quite the contrary, especially in the realms of "feeding" and amino acid enrichment ... but expectations perhaps ought be scaled down appropriately. Having said that ...

... At the moment I have very little nutrients in my water anyway (nitrate 0, nitrite 0, Phosphate 0.02 tested by Hanna). I run a 75g SPS dominated tank with some LPS and softies here and there as well. 30g sump, DIY recirc needlewheel skimmer, 6x54w T5s with Icecap SLR reflectors and Triad ballasts. I run 2xAquablue, 1 GE daylight, and 3 Blue+. ...

Extracted from ZeoThread:
New to the site ... (Horace, 1.21.2006)

I would agree that the N-coumpound and PO4 levels that you describe are currently very satisfactory. How old is the ecosystem, and how have its nutrient levels behaved in the past? I ask because those pesky "nutrient reservoirs" can sabotage attempts at better coloration ... and because introducing nutrients into a fluctuating nutrient reservoir can prove problematic. JMO.

I am running 6x54w normally driven T5s on my 20" deep 75g tank. All of my SPS are in the top half of my tank so I think I should be getting more than enough light. ...

Extracted from ZeoThread:
T5 Photo Period (Horace, 1.22.2006)

Your assessment appears quite reasonable to me, and the bulb sequencing (front to back) seems very cool. I'm looking forward to pictures.

I couldn't find any posted references in ZeoVille to your other ecosystem parameters such Ca, Mg, pH, salinity, temperature and KH/Alkalinity levels. I also couldn't find any reference to circulation hardware/configuration. More information about these might be helpful.

Apologies for the "20 questions" ... but you asked about the potential of dosing ZeoBak without either the ZEOvit media, or a zeoreactor. The parameters that I asked about could influence the potential benefits ... or apparent absence of benefits ... resulting from introducing a new "player" into the bacterioplankton guild of your ecosystem. Currently I am uncertain as to the specific mix of bacterial strains in ZeoBak. If the mix turns out to be heterotrophs, nitrifiers, and denitrifiers (... oh my ...), then no worries ... their inoculation can only be of benefit to the ecosystem. But if the mix includes some other "more interesting" microbeasties ... like iron-oxidizing, and/or sulfur-reducing bacterial strains ... then the absence of their respective growth media is going to limit the potential benefit to the system. Not that anything "bad" would result from their inoculation ... it just seems to me to not be particularly "cost effective." JMO. BTW, this is why I led with babblings about "synergy" ... .

You asked about CV, and Jeff added the suggestion of AAHC. It seems to me that, once an approriate dosing level was determined, the addition of CV and/or AAHC would be a good place to start. It seems to me that both of these supplements present the possibility of benefit for "non-ZEOvit" systems. Other potentially useful supplements ... AFTER you've found either CV and/or AAHC to be of benefit ... might include K-Balance, Fe Concentrate, MacroElements, and PIF. If it were me, I would only start with one or, at most, two supplements. ONLY after they've proved useful would I start investing in other supplement explorations. JMO.

Another possible tangent ... ZeoFood7. It seems to me that a low-level introduction of a reliable carbon source like ZeoFood7 might benefit both the bacterioplankton guild that is already present in your ecosystem, and the bacterial populations which occur on and within your coral specimens. Having said this ... I'm talking about "uncharted territory" here. I've seen no reports about the effects of isolated ZeoFood7 dosing ... no, vodka dosing (a tragic waste of a perfectly good distillate, IMO) is only weakly analogous (although ldrhawke has posted some interesting observations) ... so some serious contemplation would definitely be in order. But the concept is intriguing, yes?

Meso-rant terminated ...



JMO ... HTH

[Horace]

Ok thx for the GREAT response btw!!!

Here is some more info on my tank setup/parameters: (I filled out a bunch of stuff in my profile but apparently I put too much and most was lost )

-Tank is 8 months old

Parameters:
-KH 8 - 9dkh
-Calc ~400+ ppm
-PH 8.4 - 8.5
-Nitrate 0 (has been since start of tank)
-Nitrite 0 (has been since start of tank)
-Phosphates 0.02 (recently tested with GQJeffs' Hanna)
-SG 1.024 - 1.026
-Mag (TBD) Test kit is in the mail and should arrive tomorrow (01/24/06)

Setup:
-Mag 9.5 return pump
-Seio 820 in main tank
-Filter Sock Changed Weekly
-1 Cup Carbon

Does that help? :P

[trythechi]

THere is a swiss reefer called Iwan (Large Tank forum on RC and Lighting forum here) who has an astonishing tank. He doesnt use the Zeo basic 4: Here are his details

"Phosphate reduction:
ROWAphos

Filter:
DSB
LR

Additions:

Daily:
Phytoplankton (DT's)
ZEOstart2 (Korallenzucht)
Amino acids (Korallenzucht)
Coral Vitalizer (Korallenzucht)
Trace elements (element mix/strontium mix/iodine mix of QFI)

Weekly:
Amino acids/vitamins (Prodibio)

every 14 days:

Bacteria (Prodibio)
Bacteria food (Prodibio)

Water change:
10% per week (osmosis water)

Water values:
Ca: 420 mg/l
Mg: 1250 mg/l
/(pH): 8.1
Salinity: 35% 0
Nitrate: not provable
Phosphate: not detectable
Silicat: not detectable
Amonium/Amoniak: not detectable"


In corespondance with him the prodibio aditives are the substitute for the Z basic 4, and as you can see - he uses some other Zeo suppliments.

Based on his Jaw propping results - I am following his appproach ( 5 weeks now) and the Prodibio (probiotic method - same nutrient management category as zeo basic 4) have taken my NO3 from 20 to 0 and kept it there even when I substituted a highly agressive Deltec skimmer for a plancton friendly Tunze. PO4 has been @ 0 (Deltec Merrick test kit) which rowaphos and Alk remains spot on.

If I understand the next category of zeo products, they seem to be about coral nutrition in a nutrient poor environment and have used CV and PIF for about 2 weeks.

The CV has already caused significant growth rates in the montis, but not yet in the acros, although the colour does apear a little better in these and polip extention is much better.

The PIF or CV has turned my purple plating montis from watercolor wash purple to a vibrant purple. PIF also seems to have encouraged greater opening of the florida rics and other mushrooms (but not much change in the purple/blue and yellow yummas).

Next on my schedule of Zeo products are AAHC and Zeosart 2, with AAHC first for 2 - 3 weeks followed by ZS2 to test the effects.

I'll post my experiences if that helps.

I have to say - I'm very very pleased with Prodibio as a probiotic approach ( and respectful appols to the ZEO masters here) seems to be easier to administer and cheaper to run than the basic 4, with less risk of a problem - that said I'v never tried the basic 4 so I cant comment from experience - but do check out Iwans results - wow!

I'm also excited by CV and PIF and it makes me want to buy more coral to see what happens - so I think I will... now! LOL

JME

Simon

[Horace]

Yeah I think pretty much everyone in the SPS world has seen his tank pictures. They are truely beyong belief. I can only imagine what it looks like in person as pictures never do a tank justice.

So tell me more about this Prodibio method. What products replace the basic Zeo 4? is there somewhere I can read more about it?

After talking with Jeff last night I think I have decided to hold off on any Zeo or anything else for the next couple months, mainly because I recently upgraded my lights and it is already making a HUGE HUGE difference in coloration of some of my corals. I WILL be sure to post that...truely remarkable actually. Once that has run its course I will then throw another variable into the works. For now I dont want to add anything and not know if its the lights or the additive making things better/worse.

Thx for the info guys!

[trythechi]

Hi Horace

I'v read that this is an open forum to discuss any / all approaches to reef keeping in a civilised, inteligent manner - so I guess its OK to give you some links (mods let me know otherwise please)

First is the manufacturers web site:

http://www.prodibio.fr/anglais/accueil.htm

Second is the cheapest supplier I found who ship internationally:

http://www.theaquaticparadise.com/pr...45a7e294c5bb25

The core product is Bio Digest - which has the 9 bac strains, which are boosted by Bio Trace or Bio TPM which feed the bacteria and work synagistically - both are dosed every 15 days and are stored in glass ampules in oxygen free gas to prevent biochemical reaction, maintain freshness and extend shelf life. The third is Reef booster, dosed weekly which has Omega 3 AAs etc. A years supply for 180 US g reef cost me £83 including shipping.

It seems to be big news on German forums, but my Deutch is limited to 'where is the ski lift please?'

Would be interested in Alexander's opinion of this approach.

Cheers

SImon

[Horace]

After more thought, NOTHING AGAINST that method, but if I change things I think I am going to go with Zeo. The fact that Jeff is just up the road and will be a great resource is reason enough to go in that direction. Thx though!

[trythechi]

Great having a Zeo expert to help out

Any other views on the Prodibio approach please?

[Aged Salt]

Hi Simon, of course, Prodibio, Ultravit, & I'm sure others will enter the hobby market, riding the ZEOvit crest of SPS-keeping success. ZEOvit users know well that imitation is the best form of flattery. Iwan's reef is very nice, with bright colors which is a testament to his aquarist attributes & hours of weekly husbandry. Many may try his methods, but as SPS color & growth is multifactorial with interrelationships, most will not be able to reproduce Iwan's results. The ZEOvit method as the original bacterial driven system has a long list of users with absolutely stunning colorful reefs, a proven, step-by-step recipe for it's users to reach success, with minimal husbandry required to implement the method.

Simon, feel free to keep us updated on your endeavour. Bob

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

I'v read that this is an open forum to discuss any / all approaches to reef keeping in a civilised, inteligent manner - so I guess its OK to give you some links (mods let me know otherwise please)

No worries, my friend ... you read correctly ... ...

I have to say - I'm very very pleased with Prodibio as a probiotic approach ( and respectful appols to the ZEO masters here) seems to be easier to administer and cheaper to run than the basic 4 ...

Maybe it's just me, but as zeovit.com grows this is EXACTLY the kind of richness and diversity of perspective that I'm looking for in reefkeeping cyberspace ... open-minded, curious, experience-based, wide-ranging, civil, links to facilitate the acquisition of more information ... you got to love it ...

...

As someone disturbingly fascinated with the "tweaking" of captive marine bacterial guilds, I look forward to your updates.


JMO

[Horace]

I have to agree, even though I am limited in the Zeo tanks that I have seen, the ones I have seen are spectacular. I would love to see more. If you have any links to some I would love to see em. (ive already personally seen GQJeff's)