Examples of What C-V can do please

[skippyreef]

Since I am going to run Zeo on my new tank I wanted to hear from all of you your opinions on the C-V and see some pictures of your corals before and afte usage.

If someone could explain the principle behind the C-V I would be greatful.

[CAReefer]

I have posted some pre C-V, K-Balance pictures in a thread a few days ago. I should receive my supplies on monday, and will be posting weekly progress pics to that thread.

http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4993

Marshal

[nbd13]

Mike, maybe this weekend i can take some pics for you. i have some saved from awhile ago before CV to show what its doing. i have been using CV for atleast about 1 1/2 months now.

i really like it, i notcied a nice increase in color and growth has takend off....

i will get some shots for you.

Nick

[nbd13]

Forgot to mention Mike,

there are a couple good reads on the subject of CV.

I think its another supplement that Pohl came out with to help us with our corals. Maybe its like a "food source" for them. Some say it smells like cod-liver oil and there is even a guy tht created his "own" version of CV. there was one guy using it that i know of....

I should have taken more pics to show people the difference, i will post the ones i have later when i get a chance to get home and take new pics.

Now i should warn you i have been dosing, Fe and PFI and just started last week dosing K-balance so its not just the CV you are seeing....

the more i think about it, i think i have been using CV for about 7 weeks now maybe 8...

Maybe Bob, Gary, Scott, or Alexander can stop in an comment more about CV. From my view its another supplement that Pohl came out with in his never ending attempt to give us the best for our corals. I think it might help the SPS anyways in giving them another food source besides the "mulm" prodcued when you pump your rocks.

I know its expensive and thats why my next bottle will be the bigger 100ml one i think. It gives you more and is alittle cheaper than compared to the 50ml.

I will post some pics later in a new thread here for you.

Nick

[Orion76]

Maybe its like a "food source" for them. Some say it smells like cod-liver oil

Opinion of a wine snob with a fine nose (me ) : It's Oyster Eggs with vinegar and possibly something else.

[G.Alexander]

Mike as Nick told it is a food for corals which does not contains nutrients like PO4 or NO3. The liquid ingredients are taken up from the water column and the particles enter the coral over the polyps & the mucus, which in my experience increased dramatically since using it daily for some month. I have also observed this with wild SPS corals so IMO it is a very positive sign. All my Acroporas are covered with a strong mucus like the green staghorn known from Bali. I have never observed this before. However I believe the mucus plays a central roll in the nutrition of corals. Bacteria are hosted in the mucus, also fine particles sticking, passing by in the water column. Both are excellent food for our corals.

I dose 3 drops per 25 gallons daily in the dark period.

G.Alexander

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

... The liquid ingredients are taken up from the water column and the particles enter the coral over the polyps & the mucus, which in my experience increased dramatically since using it daily for some month. I have also observed this with wild SPS corals so IMO it is a very positive sign. All my Acroporas are covered with a strong mucus like the green staghorn known from Bali. I have never observed this before. However I believe the mucus plays a central roll in the nutrition of corals. Bacteria are hosted in the mucus, also fine particles sticking, passing by in the water column. Both are excellent food for our corals. ...

G.Alexander

I agree completely regarding the central roles of mucus in the nutrition of corals ... it isn't just all about photosynthesis anymore, sports fans. But it's even better than that, because the mucus layer's involvement in nutritional mechanisms isn't limited to the capture and ingestion of prey and particulates. It seems to me that "components" of the ZEOvit system and its related products ... inoculation & generation of suspended bacterioplankton, and dosing of amino acids, vitamins, specific ions, et cetera ... tap directly into the functioning of coral mucus layers in ways that "typical" Berlin-style systems and its variants only "weakly" tap into.


Consider these extracts from Low temperature X-ray microanalysis of calcium in a scleractinian coral: evidence of active transport mechanisms (Peta L. Clode and Alan T. Marshall, 2002, Full Text Article) ...

"... In G. fascicularis, high concentrations of the cations K<SUP>+</SUP> and Sr<SUP>2+</SUP><SUP> </SUP>in mucus granules suggests that these cations are likely to play<SUP> </SUP>a primary role in neutralising the polyanions of mucin molecules. ..."
(Suggesting a role for K ions in the electrochemical behavior of the mucus matrix. Hmmm ... so much for the assertion that adding K ions to our systems is totally pointless. JMO.)

"... In G. fascicularis, the layer of mucus covering the oral ectoderm is<SUP> </SUP>of the order of 10-20 µm thick (Marshall and Wright, 1995), and<SUP> </SUP>we suggest that this layer may play an important role in ion<SUP> </SUP>transport. Mucus layers are known to influence the distribution<SUP> </SUP>of ions at epithelial surfaces (reviewed by Shephard, 1989;<SUP> </SUP>Verdugo, 1990; Lichtenberger, 1995; Werther, 2000, this being<SUP> </SUP>a consequence of the effect of the mucus on diffusion rates<SUP> </SUP>of ions and also of the participation of the constituent negatively<SUP> </SUP>charged polyanions in Donnan equilibria. ..."
(Hmmm ... so by engaging the mucus layer, we're also engaging at least one mechanism which helps to distribute ions. Sounds like something that might have a potential influence on coloration and growth. JMO.)

BTW ... if you're going to delve into membranes and their behavior with regards to environmental interfaces (... like a marine water column, aka NSW ...), the "Gibbs-Donnan Equilibrium" is a worthwhile concept to be familiar with.

Definition Donnan (Gibbs-Donnan) Equilibrium:

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" align=center bgColor=#efffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>Donnan equilibrium (also known as Gibbs-Donnan equilibrium) refers to the particular equilibrium set up when two solutions are separated by a membrane permeable to some but not all of the ions in the solutions. In practice, the membrane is often permeable to the solvent and small ions but not to colloidal ions or charged particles of colloidal size. An electrical potential develops between the two sides of the membrane with the two solutions having varying osmotic pressure.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Extracted from: ScienceNet

Note, in these extracts, SW = "saltwater" ...

" ... The establishment of a mucus layer at the SW—oral ectoderm<SUP> </SUP>interface may facilitate the uptake of Ca<SUP>2+</SUP> into the oral ectodermal<SUP> </SUP>cells, with Ca<SUP>2+</SUP> able to exist in higher concentrations in a<SUP> </SUP>Donnan state within this mucus matrix, in comparison to the<SUP> </SUP>normal SW environment. ..."
(Yep ... if we're increasing the quantity and/or efficiency of the mucus matrix, we're facilitating the uptake of Ca. Sounds like something which might positively influence coral growth patterns. JMO.)

"... The effects of an external mucus layer upon the microenvironment<SUP> </SUP>of the oral ectoderm—SW interface and its effect upon<SUP> </SUP>the rates of ionic uptake and exchange have not been previously<SUP> </SUP>recognised. Consideration has only been given to the boundary<SUP> </SUP>layer in relation to O2 diffusion (Kuhl et al., 1995; Gardella<SUP> </SUP>and Edmunds, 1999; De Beer et al., 2000). The presence of a<SUP> </SUP>mucus layer within an external SW compartment on the surface<SUP> </SUP>of the oral ectoderm may facilitate the maintenance of a Ca<SUP>2+</SUP> concentration<SUP> </SUP>next to the ectodermal cells that is higher than that in standard<SUP> </SUP>SW. This in turn may favour a high rate of entry of Ca<SUP>2+</SUP> into<SUP> </SUP>the ectodermal cells during daytime. ..."
(Sounds like something which might positively influence coral growth patterns. JMO.)

... I dose 3 drops per 25 gallons daily in the dark period.

G.Alexander

The question, 'When is the best time to feed corals?' is one I continue to ponder. The current literature gives "mixed" signals to the general question, but documentation regarding the behavior of the mucus matrix is beginning to emerge.

"... A<SUP> </SUP>reduction in the secretion of mucus and mucus-lipids at night<SUP> </SUP>time has also been observed in the corals Acropora acuminata<SUP> </SUP>and Acropora variabilis (Crossland et al., 1980; Crossland, 1987). ..."
(Not sure what this means ... if anything ... in terms of optimal dosing timeframe for CV. The paper speaks of "reduction", not cessation. JMO.)

"... At night-time, calcification<SUP> </SUP>rate is markedly reduced, but calcification still occurs (Marshall,<SUP> </SUP>1996; Marshall and Wright, 1998). Thus, it is not surprising<SUP> </SUP>that a high Ca concentration persists in the internal SW coelenteric<SUP> </SUP>compartments. A continual presence of elevated Ca concentration,<SUP> </SUP>detected within internal coelenteric compartments in corals sampled<SUP> </SUP>during both daytime and night-time, suggests that maintenance<SUP> </SUP>of high Ca concentrations within internal SW compartments is<SUP> </SUP>independent of the formation of the mucus layer and Donnan state<SUP> </SUP>in the external SW layer. The latter, however, may affect the<SUP> </SUP>rate of transport across the epithelium. ..."
(Something other than mucus transport of Ca is going on in terms of night-time skeletogenesis. Hmmm ... active transport across an electro-chemical gradient?)

For some really cool pics of oral epithelium, aboral epithelum, and the mucus layer, check out this ZeoThread ... Active Transport of Calcium in a Scleractinian? (Mesocosm, 11-02-2005).


Methinks Zeo products might be doing some interesting things ... ...



JMO ... HTH

[nbd13]

Gary, very imformative!

Mike- i didnt forget, i finally found my tripod so i will get some good pics for you tomorrow, if i can get some decent ones, haha

Nick

[skippyreef]

Thansk for the informative explanations guys!!

[Diesel3443]

Gary your database is incredible

[bogg]

wow very informative ty

[danny]

I've heard that this mucus is beeing released inte the watercolom with umcoming tide and this muces is one off the main foodsources for Dendronephthya.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

... If someone could explain the principle behind the C-V I would be greatful.

Glad you folks liked the extracts, but they hardly "explain the principle behind the C-V" ... not even close. Identifying one of the potential "uptake mechanisms" is a long way from specifying the biochemical pathways involved.

Even so, I don't think ZeoVille is going to be particularly surprised as the literature which documents non-photosynthetic "energy/nutrition" mechanisms continues to emerge. However, it does seem to me that the cyber-personalities who have long asserted that photosynthesis is the ONLY energetics mechanism of importance have some explaining to do.


For the record, Dr. Walters (solbby) asked one of THE right questions in another thread last week ...

Many hard corals are actually able to create all their amino acids via photosynthesis, which is probably to their selective advantage in oligotropic waters.

Did you find any info on free amino acid uptake for energetic usage?

Extracted from ZeoThread:
Amino Acid Uptake in Corals & Coral Planulae (mesocosm 1-14-2006)

Tragically ... my current answer is no ... ... but I'm still looking ...

It's becoming increasingly clear in the literature that corals are not only synthesizing amino acids, but that they're also obtaining them from the water column, prey, "attached" bacteria, coral gut bacteria, and bacterial endosymbiots. This is all way cool, but ... when we figure out how amino acids are being utilized in terms of the bioenergetics, only then we will have taken a huge step forward.


JMO ... HTH

[Aged Salt]

Very interesting info, thnx. Gary

"The reduction of secretion of mucus & mucoid-lipids at nightime by our corals" suggests a shift in the Gibbs-Donnan equilibrium toward absorption vs. secretion during non-photsynthetic periods. This mechanism, if true, would lend credence to nightime feeding of C-V, etc.

I do not believe the corals absorb the AA's directly as such but absorb their by-products through their mucus & polyps, as Alexander, & you have mentioned. In all likehood, the protein sysnthesis from the available AA's by-products is the positive effect we see from dosing AAHC in a oligotrohic environment. Gary, if you do find any studies depicting direct AA's absorption as their energestic source, plz. do post this. Bob

[Ger]

I do not believe the corals absorb the AA's directly as such but absorb their by-products through their mucus & polyps, as Alexander, & you have mentioned. In all likehood, the protein sysnthesis from the available AA's by-products is the positive effect we see from dosing AAHC in a oligotrohic environment. Gary, if you do find any studies depicting direct AA's absorption as their energestic source, plz. do post this. Bob

Bob, when you say "directly absorbing", do you mean "actively" feeding? What about "directly absorbing" as in taking it up "passively". IOW, if there are certain AA's in the water column, they will pass through the tissue... otherwise it would mean they are filtered out. Does that make sense where I am going?