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  • Ozone

    I decided to place this thread here cause I think it is sort of an "expert" needed reply question. If I am wrong, I kindly ask the moderator to move the post in an appropriate section.

    Recently here in Italy I started to hear about the use of ozone in reeftanks. My understanding was that ozone is a sterilizing media which should be used with caution cause it kills (remove) all sort of things: negative and positive.

    I understand that the use of ozone is not suggested in tanks using the Zeovit method, because it destroys the positive bacterias produced by the combined use of the zeolith+zeofood+ZS1 or 2. This means that ozone is supposed to remove also bacterias from the water column.

    I read in an othe post by Mesocosm that ozone surely removes aminoacids. So in a tank using ozone, the supply of aminoacids is quite unecessary, or I should say, unuseful.

    I also imagine, but I might be wrong, that ozone is so effective in removing particulate matter, that feeding a tank which uses ozone, could be difficult, or useless.

    If ozone, removes, both bacterias and amminoacids, why should an aquarist, using a standard berlin system (or any other methodology) use ozone in such a tank?

    Bacterias are useful also in such systems, and not only in the Zeovit method based tanks.

    I understand that ozone has the major important effect on clarity of the water and this obviously improves the quantity of light which reaches corals.

    In the end, my question is: if ozone effectively kills bacterias (both good and bad), why should anyone use it, and which are the consequences on a standard home system?

    Thanks a lot

    Mat

  • #2
    I'm definately not an ozone expert but i've seen plenty of tanks use it successfully. I think a lot of people use it sparingly to they don't overkill the beneficial organisms and elements in the reef tank. That is just speculation on my part though.

    Comment


    • #3
      I know a couple also but i never really got into it to try and understand it
      Nick
      180G SPS Mainly
      10 Bulb T5 Starfire
      Calcium Reactor
      3 Tunze 6105's
      Profilux Controller
      ATB Return w/ wavysea
      ATB M External Skimmer


      Comment


      • #4
        Greetings All !



        Originally posted by Mat
        ... In the end, my question is: if ozone effectively kills bacterias (both good and bad), why should anyone use it, and which are the consequences on a standard home system?

        Thanks a lot

        Mat
        A little general ozone background ... Ozone is a triatomic form of oxygen which can be generated by electrical and photochemical processes. It is an extremely reactive oxidizer. Because it is an extremely reactive oxidizer, it can readily bind with a variety of compounds. Such a reaction typically alters the properties of the compounds with which ozone reacts. Ozone is powerful ... and potentially toxic ... stuff.

        When ozone comes into contact with organic molecules, it tends to "rip them apart." If you're trying to kill bacteria, "ripping them apart" is a pretty effective way of doing it, hence the use of ozone as a sterilizer. Because ozone does not "linger" the way that chemical sterilizers can, it is to be preferred over chemical sterilizers in certain applications.

        If you're trying to make POCs and DOCs (... particulate organic compounds, and, dissolved organic compounds, respectively ...) "easier" to metabolize by heterotrophs, or if you're trying to make them smaller so that they will scatter light less, then exposing them to ozone is an effective way of achieving either goal.

        In solution, ozone also alters the electronegativity of the solution ... it alters the reduction-oxidation (redox) potential. By altering the redox potential of a solution, you can change the tendency/likelihood of certain reactions, and biochemical processes, to take place.


        Why would anyone use it in their aqaurium? Well ... if you've got a pathenogenic bacteria floating around in the water column, dissolving ozone into the water column will kill the pathogens. If you have water clarity issues arising from POCs or DOCs in the water column, dissolving ozone into the water column will "shred" many of those compounds ... thus lowering the turbidity of the water column. If you're trying to alter the oxidation state of certain chemicals to make them more likely to participate in biogeochemical processes (... like nitrification ...), dissolving ozone into the water column is an effective way of doing it.

        Ozonation is a classic, economical ... and quite effective ... way of managing bacterial, POC, and DOC concentrations in an aquarium's water column, hence its use in Berlin-style systems, particularly systems with a heavy bioload, and systems into which fish are introducing frequently.

        The problem with using ozonation with the ZEOvit methodology is that, in ZEOsystems, we are actively generating ... and introducing/inoculating ... bacteria, POCs, and DOCs into our systems. Ozonation disrupts the very mechanisms we are trying to employ. We're trying to enrich the bacterial guilds of our systems ... ozonation disrupts this enrichment process. We're trying to deliver food and nutrients ... in the form of amino acids, DOCs (a carbon source, for example), and POCs (the "mulm", for example) ... for consumption by our coral specimens and the bacterial guild. Ozone will tend to shred the very compounds we're using to produce the growth rates and coloration which characterizes the ZEOvit methodology.

        The "uncertainty" expressed by people grounded in classic Berlin-style methodology is quite understandable. After all, within a classic Berlin-style mindset, DOCs and POCs are generally viewed as "BAD." ZEOvit methodology applies a different mindset ... one where DOCs and POCs delivered as food and nutrients are "good" (... as demonstrated by improved growth rates and coloration ...), so long as periodic enrichment of the bacterial guild (... inoculating ZeoBak, and adding ZeoFood ..) produces efficient nutrient export (... as demonstrated by oligotrophic water parameters).

        Not that Berlin-style systems don't produce efficient nutrient export with some DOCs and POCs delivered as "food" ... quite the contrary. But then, I don't view the ZEOvit methodology as all that significant of a departure from Berlin-style methodology. Rather, I view ZEOvit as a significant enrichment of Berlin-style methodology. After all, bacterial guild behavior and foam fractionation for nutrient export form the "core" of both methodologies ...

        ... ...


        JMO ... HTH
        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
        Hunter S. Thompson

        Comment


        • #5
          Well,

          That sure was detailed and long winded...

          However I take issue with, "one where DOCs and POCs delivered as food and nutrients are "good" (... as demonstrated by improved growth rates and coloration ...)"

          I have been an advocate, and user of ozone for about 20 years. I run ozone on both my Fish Only and my Reef System -- 500mg/hr 24/7.

          I get excellent coloration of my corals, and given my display tank is lit by all 20k lights, I get an exceptional growth rate.

          Note: I am not a Zeo user, just a cool coral addict.

          Dave B
          400g SPS Reef - 33g Surge - +30k gph Flow - Lots of DIY / 1100g Outdoor SPS System / 280g FO Watch my Reef Tank, LIVE!!!

          Comment


          • #6
            If you're trying to alter the oxidation state of certain chemicals to make them more likely to participate in biogeochemical processes (... like nitrification ...), dissolving ozone into the water column is an effective way of doing it.
            This is the part I don't get very well. We are saying that ozone kills bacteria. Nitrification, for what I know is done by two kind of bacterias in our applications: Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter.

            Are this kind of bacterias somehow protected from the ozone action?

            Also, you say that ozone is quite efficient in tearing apart POC and DOC and this is also suggestable if we want to favour the metabolism of heterotroph animals. I believe because we make food particles small enough. Correct?

            As we all know, corals do achieve a part of their energy need from heterotrophic feeding.

            I thought that POC and DOC were already "small enough" to be "eaten" by corals without problems. Maybe I don't understand.

            Last: if ozone is so effective in co-operating with skimming, in the "cleaning" action and in keeping nutrients at a very low level, how come aquarists do prefer not to use it, or to use different methods, such as Zeovit?

            Is this because in the Zeovit method there is more biology and less technology (to quote Borneman) or is it because ozone is difficult to use?

            Sorry for all the questions and obviously there is no chriticism in my post.

            Mat

            Comment


            • #7
              Greetings All !

              Hey Dave! ... What's up? ...


              Originally posted by o2manyfish
              Well,
              That sure was detailed and long winded...
              All my years playing teacher without a helmet have taken a serious toll ... ...



              Originally posted by o2manyfish
              ... However I take issue with, "one where DOCs and POCs delivered as food and nutrients are "good" (... as demonstrated by improved growth rates and coloration ...)"


              Don't forget the "... so long as periodic enrichment of the bacterial guild (... inoculating ZeoBak, and adding ZeoFood ..) produces efficient nutrient export (... as demonstrated by oligotrophic water parameters)" part.

              Dave ... what's your general take on adding particulate "foods/nutrients", and amino acid dosing in artificially lighted reefs? Prior to experimenting with ZEOproducts, the only things that I would regularly add to my reefs were kalkwasser and FW. TIA.




              Originally posted by o2manyfish
              I have been an advocate, and user of ozone for about 20 years. I run ozone on both my Fish Only and my Reef System -- 500mg/hr 24/7.
              I've run ozone in FO systems since the late 70's, and in reefs since 1984 ... no worries ... efficient stuff ... wonderful reduction of turbidity. But it is potentially counter-productive if one is pursuing a strategy of actively inoculating their system's bacterial guild, adding amino acids, and directing DOCs and POCs as nutrient food sources. JMO.



              Originally posted by o2manyfish
              I get excellent coloration of my corals, and given my display tank is lit by all 20k lights, I get an exceptional growth rate.
              The excellence of your systems speaks for itself ...



              Originally posted by o2manyfish
              Note: I am not a Zeo user, just a cool coral addict.

              Dave B
              Screamin' shirts and a red caddy convertible ... hehe ... res ipsa loquitor ...



              JMO
              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
              Hunter S. Thompson

              Comment


              • #8
                I have to say the least I mess with my system, the happier and more colorful things seem to be.

                As for additives, I experimented with a bunch of "Hot for a Moment" trendy foods, and discovered that the less 'foods' I add the less I have to clean my glass.

                I have been a strong proponent for not even feeding the fish in my reef tank for years and years. However, in the past couple of months, I have tried to load my 400g display tank with all sorts of lil blennies and gobies and have been forced to start feeding the tank to keep them happy.

                As for the corals - I run a Calc Reactor, I have a KW reactor for all my top off. And I really like the Tropic Marin Bio Calcium. When I am not lazy enough to remembed to toss that stuff in regularly the corals really respond well.

                Other than that the only thing I monitor is temperature and salinity.

                As for the screaming shirts --- Well I have no excuse -- Other than under 20k's the colors aren't as bright

                Dave B
                400g SPS Reef - 33g Surge - +30k gph Flow - Lots of DIY / 1100g Outdoor SPS System / 280g FO Watch my Reef Tank, LIVE!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Greetings All !


                  Originally posted by Mat
                  Also, you say that ozone is quite efficient in tearing apart POC and DOC and this is also suggestable if we want to favour the metabolism of heterotroph animals. I believe because we make food particles small enough. Correct?
                  When I speak of oxidizers "tearing apart" POC, I'm speaking about a change in the chemical structure ... as opposed to a change in the physical size. While the resultant POC will have a slightly greater surface area than the initial POC, this isn't all that significant.

                  Let me back up a little ...

                  Substances that have the ability to oxidize (Commonwealth English oxidise) other substances are said to be oxidative and are known as oxidizing agents, oxidants or oxidizers. Put in another way, the oxidant removes electrons from the other substance, and is thus reduced itself. Oxidants are usually chemical substances with elements in high oxidation numbers (e.g. H2O2, MnO4-, CrO3, Cr2O72-, OsO4) or highly electronegative substances that can gain one or two extra electrons by oxidizing a substance (O2, O3, F2, Cl2, Br2).

                  Extracted From:
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox
                  And ...

                  Electronegativity: The ability of an atom to inductively pull electrons towards itself. The more electronegative an atom, the tighter it pulls the electrons. Commonly measured on the Pauling scale, the higher the electronegativity, the more strongly an atom attracts electrons. Note electronegativity is a characteristic property of a given atom.

                  Extracted From:
                  http://www.everyscience.com/Chemistry/Glossary/E.php
                  So ... ozone is a oxidizer with a high electronegativity. It "likes" to "grab" electrons. When ozone "grabs" an electron from a POC, the chemical structure of the POC is fundamentally altered ... it is not what it was before the ozone molecule came in contact with it ... and neither is the ozone. The resulting "pieces" of the POC that has been "torn apart" by the ozone oftentimes more readily participate in biogeochemical processes than the initial POC.

                  It's about the chemical structure and the electron affinity of that structure ... not the structure's size.


                  HTH
                  "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
                  Hunter S. Thompson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Greetings All !

                    Originally posted by mesocosm
                    If you're trying to make POCs and DOCs (... particulate organic compounds, and, dissolved organic compounds, respectively ...) "easier" to metabolize by heterotrophs, or if you're trying to make them smaller so that they will scatter light less, then exposing them to ozone is an effective way of achieving either goal.
                    This was specifically in response to, "In the end, my question is: if ozone effectively kills bacterias (both good and bad), why should anyone use it, and which are the consequences on a standard home system?" The chemical structure of POC and DOC are definitely factors involved with turbidity. But the primary benefit of ozonation, in terms of water quality ... IMO ... is with regards to POC and DOC export.

                    Perhaps better might have been ...

                    While it is true that the use of ozone has some typically under-appreciated benefits to the oxidation-reduction processes of nitrification and denitrification, the primary reason that people use ozone is to alter the chemical structure of POC and DOC in a way that both are more easily removed by foam fractionation.


                    HTH
                    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
                    Hunter S. Thompson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      meso ,nice read as always,i have always used ozone,personaly i think is the most effective tool to break hydrogen bonds,in marine aquaria & more than anything is misunderstood,different methods are used to measure orp in our tanks,accuracy of all these readings are under question & you have to clean your probes very often,many people are scared that they are gonna totally steralize thier tank which in a fully stocked tank is almost impossible(injecting the right amount of ozone that is),unless you are using 500mg/hr in a 20 gal tank& also,there is the myth that risidual oxidants in the watercolum , will make your tank crash in time,well that is a story i have only heard online &never seen in person,
                      but more than anything what i don't understand is that ,why is using ozone a problem with zeo system,if you are injecting ozone into skimmer you are only killing the bacteria that you are trying to export through the skimmer,not the bacteria in your system ozone is not gonna be travelling through your system that much,as meso mentioned too it is highly reactive will break big mollecules & etc & some will get back in the air,the rest is gonna be neutralized with carbon & or if you run uv on you return,so why is it that doesnot work with zeo??????

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Jason, ZEOvit method reduces N03's & P04's while clarifying water to a crystal appearance & at the same time provides food[duff] for our corals. It is a specialized bacterial-driven system which depends on innoculation periodly with these specialized bacteria & their specific carbon source to promote colonization in sufficient #'s in order to carry out the function of purifying our reef water. I have seen pictures of a European zeo-reef using 03 so it can be used, but it is counterproductive to the ZEOvit method that one is emploring & therefore, not necessary. HTH, Bob
                        Last edited by Aged Salt; 11-24-2005, 06:43 PM.
                        "There might be something to this ZEOvit"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by: Meso


                          I've run ozone in FO systems since the late 70's, and in reefs since 1984 ... no worries ... efficient stuff ... wonderful reduction of turbidity. But it is potentially counter-productive if one is pursuing a strategy of actively inoculating their system's bacterial guild, adding amino acids, and directing DOCs and POCs as nutrient food sources. JMO.
                          This is an interesting point. I would like to ask you, and any ozone user, if the use of O3 is really counter-productive in feeding our animals.

                          I believe O3 is extremely effective in riducing also food particulate matter (phito and zoo plankton surrogates; cyclopeez, golden pearls, etc...), amminoacids and so on. But would it be possible/suggestible to add more food to a given tank, considering that O3 is so effective?

                          Is this just an other method to manage a reef tank, which could be compared to a tank running Zeovit, or are there issues that would suggest NOT to use O3 in our tanks?

                          The idea I am making on O3 (and it is a new concept for me) is that it could be considered as a viable solution to manage a reef tank, with good potential results both on color and growth = health of our corals.

                          It seems to me that it is somehow to be considered opposite to the Zeovit method, because this last one relies on the "contribution" of bacteria to obtain the same kind of results of O3. I would say that Zeovit looks more like a biological way of achieving the same results as O3.

                          But I might also be extremely wrong, and I really need an explanation if there are negative or probelematic effects on the use of O3 (out of the care one should use in adding it to a reef tank).

                          I really appreciate your explanation Meso, I think you are very good at that!!

                          Thanks again

                          Mat

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I love and run Ozone......
                            www.reeftecdesigns.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I post my thread again, hoping to receive some eplanations. Thanks to anyone who will contriubute.



                              Originally posted by: Meso


                              Quote:
                              I've run ozone in FO systems since the late 70's, and in reefs since 1984 ... no worries ... efficient stuff ... wonderful reduction of turbidity. But it is potentially counter-productive if one is pursuing a strategy of actively inoculating their system's bacterial guild, adding amino acids, and directing DOCs and POCs as nutrient food sources. JMO.


                              This is an interesting point. I would like to ask you, and any ozone user, if the use of O3 is really counter-productive in feeding our animals.

                              I believe O3 is extremely effective in riducing also food particulate matter (phito and zoo plankton surrogates; cyclopeez, golden pearls, etc...), amminoacids and so on. But would it be possible/suggestible to add more food to a given tank, considering that O3 is so effective?

                              Is this just an other method to manage a reef tank, which could be compared to a tank running Zeovit, or are there issues that would suggest NOT to use O3 in our tanks?

                              The idea I am making on O3 (and it is a new concept for me) is that it could be considered as a viable solution to manage a reef tank, with good potential results both on color and growth = health of our corals.

                              It seems to me that it is somehow to be considered opposite to the Zeovit method, because this last one relies on the "contribution" of bacteria to obtain the same kind of results of O3. I would say that Zeovit looks more like a biological way of achieving the same results as O3.

                              But I might also be extremely wrong, and I really need an explanation if there are negative or probelematic effects on the use of O3 (out of the care one should use in adding it to a reef tank).

                              I really appreciate your explanation Meso, I think you are very good at that!!

                              Thanks again

                              Mat

                              Comment

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