heterotrophs and ZEOVITE

[charles matthews]

Hello I've been researching Dendronephthya husbandry for a few years now. What interested me about the Zeovite method is the suspension of biofilm mulm on a regular basis, for export to the skimmer- but which also makes such material available to filter feeders as well.

Does anyone have experience with non photosynthetic obligate heterotrophs in Zeovite tanks? Dendros and Scleros are of particular interest to me, but am also interested in sponges, flame scallops, gorgonians, crinoids, etc.

Charles Matthews MD
[email protected]
Raleigh NC USA

[Detritivore]

welcome to zeovit.com!

i followed your thread on RC for a short time. i thought it was pretty interesting. i was wondering, if they have figured out what dendro's eat. i was under the impression that they eat phyto (according to Borneman, Calfo, etc). do you know if dendro's prefer nutrient poor environments? because zeo filters the water to a very low nutrient state. i have observed however, that when i shake the mulm, a lot of almost powdery stuff gets into the water, but i cannot tell whether it is detritus or something else.

HTH

btw, i hope you find a way to keep these corals. they are IMO some of the most stunning corals on the reef.

[coralite]

I have 0 experience with the ZEOvit system so far but I too have considered the potential of producing a biofilm that could be suspended to feed dendros and crinoids. I manage a wetlab at USC in columbia SC and we are considering setting up a system for this purpose. you may be interested in this reference.

A. L. Shanks and E. W. Edmondson. 1989. Laboratory made artificial marine snow; a biological model of the real thing. Marine Biology 101: 463-470.

incidentally these researchers were at Chapel HIll and Moorehead at the time, maybe they are still there and you can contact them for similar papers and research into this topic.
I didnt catch the RC thread, care to fill me in and kick off a discussion?

[Detritivore]

here it is: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=524097

happy reading

[mesocosm]

Greetings All!

It's great to see you here Dr. Matthews ...




After the 'I'll be checking out ZEOvit' post in the RC thread, I was wondering if I'd see you here ... very cool!

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Hello I've been researching Dendronephthya husbandry for a few years now. What interested me about the Zeovite method is the suspension of biofilm mulm on a regular basis, for export to the skimmer- but which also makes such material available to filter feeders as well. ...

It was the bacterioplankton aspects of the ZEOvit methodology that initially got me "hooked" with the system ... a fascination that continues. There's clearly a suspended POM aspect that is not typically present with either LR-based Berlin-style, or DSB systems.

This weekend I'll be setting up a 20G tank with a functional zeoreactor and a heater .. nothing else. Zeovit media, ZeoBak, and Zeofood will be applied as per ZeoGuide instructions. The purpose of the tank will be to generate "mulm" ... and if I'm extremely lucky, a biofilm ... that will allow visual examination using some of my digital microscopy toys. It should take around 3 weeks to develop anything useful ... perhaps a bit longer.

Hopefully we'll get a look at some of the larger particulates that the zeoreactor is actually releasing into the system. I'll post pics as soon as there's something "interesting" to post.

... Does anyone have experience with non photosynthetic obligate heterotrophs in Zeovite tanks? Dendros and Scleros are of particular interest to me, but am also interested in sponges, flame scallops, gorgonians, crinoids, etc.

Here's a Neptheis fasicicularis specimen ... with oral tentacles extended ... which grew for over 3 months (5-6 "regeneration" cycles) in a Zeosystem ... until he was sold.




While there is probably not significant overlap between the "preferred" particle size of family Neptheidae vs. family Clavelinidae ... after all, we're talking about the differences between Cnidarians vs. Urochordates ... I suspect that the POM which both feed on could be nutritionally enriched by (i) the bacteria generated by a zeoreactor, and (ii) the relatively frequent inoculation of ZeoBak into the water column ... JMO.


BTW ... loved the RC thread. If anyone is interested in this stuff, it is definitely worth a read ... IMO.


HTH

[Detritivore]

gary, that tunicate-looking thingy is heterotrophic? and it grew in your tank?

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

gary, that tunicate-looking thingy is heterotrophic? ... ?

Yep. The tunicate-looking thingy is, in fact, a tunicate ... AKA Ascidians or Sea Squirts ... the common name in the trade for this beastie is "Blue Lollipop Tunicate".

It's an "infaunal suspension feeder", as opposed to a "filter feeder". While, technically, all suspension feeders are filter feeders, filter feeders are those suspension feeders that capture particles based strictly on a size or shape based filtration mechanism (Jorgensen 1966). Suspension feeders are generally not able to select for size or shape ... their primary particle capture mechanism is mucus.

Purely heterotrophic? ... as far as the literature I've seen. However, there is mention of epibiotic cyanobacteria being associated with these guys. The nutritional relationship was ill-defined when last I looked ... anyone have updates/better sources on this?

Dendros and Scleros are of particular interest to me, but am also interested in sponges, flame scallops, gorgonians, crinoids, etc.

These are all suspension/filter feeders ... hope the insertion of an Ascidian was appropriate. I tend to interpret "etc" rather broadly ...

...

... and it grew in your tank?

I used to "not get" Ascidians from the wholesalers because of their relatively poor survivability in our systems. Given the matrix of potential "injuries" due to collection, holding, shipping, and "difficulty" of feeding, I had a hard time justifying their purchase ... same with Crinoids. But I have continued to try to figure out a practical husbandry strategy for some time, despite my difficulties. Over time, my observational skills ... delusions? ... have improved so that I can usually spot the "injuries" stuff ... but the feeding aspect had always remained elusive. Researchers over half a century ago noted the fact that particulates used as food could be fundamentally different in terms of pelagic vs. benthic suspension feeders. The ZEOvit system presented an opportunity to easily and consistently introduce bacteria into the water column. I've been very pleased with the results so far.

JMO ... HTH

[mesocosm]

Apologies if there's a duplication here ...

Greetings All !

gary, that tunicate-looking thingy is heterotrophic? ...

Yep. The tunicate-looking thingy is, in fact, a tunicate ... AKA Ascidians or Sea Squirts ... the common name in the trade for this beastie is "Blue Lollipop Tunicate".
It's an "infaunal suspension feeder", as opposed to a "filter feeder". While, technically, all suspension feeders are filter feeders, filter feeders are those suspension feeders that capture particles based strictly on a size or shape based filtration mechanism (Jorgensen 1966). Suspension feeders are generally not able to select for size or shape ... their primary particle capture mechanism is mucus.
Purely heterotrophic? ... as far as the literature I've seen. However, there is mention of epibiotic cyanobacteria being associated with these guys. The nutritional relationship was ill-defined when last I looked ... anyone have updates/better sources on this?

Dendros and Scleros are of particular interest to me, but am also interested in sponges, flame scallops, gorgonians, crinoids, etc.

These are all suspension/filter feeders ... hope the insertion of an Ascidian was appropriate. I tend to interpret "etc" rather broadly ...
...

... and it grew in your tank?

I used to "not get" Ascidians from the wholesalers because of their relatively poor survivability in our systems. Given the matrix of potential "injuries" due to collection, holding, shipping, and "difficulty" of feeding, I had a hard time justifying their purchase ... same with Crinoids. But I have continued to try to figure out a practical husbandry strategy for some time, despite my difficulties. Over time, my observational skills ... delusions? ... have improved so that I can usually spot the "injuries" stuff ... but the feeding aspect had always remained elusive. Researchers over half a century ago noted the fact that particulates used as food could be fundamentally different in terms of pelagic vs. benthic suspension feeders. The ZEOvit system presented an opportunity to easily and consistently introduce bacteria into the water column. I've been very pleased with the results so far.


JMO ... HTH

[GTR]

Gary

Neptheis fasicicularis, is that the one Tyree features in his book slowly wasting away? I have the book but it's at home.

I tried one before I found a used copy of his book. I'd like to try one again since I've set my reactor in a 25g remote tub which drains into the sump somewhere around 300gph. I've been putting anything "squirt" or "sponge" looking in that tub.
One of my problems (and I have many) is trying to determine if they are heterotrophic and knowing if the lack of growth is because I've guessed wrong.

SteveU

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Gary

Neptheis fasicicularis, is that the one Tyree features in his book slowly wasting away? I have the book but it's at home. ...
SteveU

Yes ... but I don't know about the wasting away part ...
Tyree's works are seminal stuff ... by far and away the best "hobbyist level" stuff I've found in their respective subjects ... IMO.

It's the "binding" that drives me mad ... :cursin:

... I tried one before I found a used copy of his book. I'd like to try one again since I've set my reactor in a 25g remote tub which drains into the sump somewhere around 300gph. ...
SteveU

I was very impressed with the way it, and 2 other specimens, perked right up when placed in the zeosystem. So was everyone else ... I had to refuse to sell them constantly.

Not making friends ... and not behaving like a good capitalist ...

They did the full ~2 week "regeneration" cycle like clockwork ... the zeosystem was completely superior to Berlin-style systems with moderate to heavy phytoplankton dosing. JMO.

Where's the 300 GPH flow coming from? If it's from the main display, then you might consider setting up one of Tyree's "cryptic" chambers. IME, larger size particulates tends to disrupt these guys. If you're talking about a remote tank that's supplied from the main sump, then it sounds ideal. JMO.

... I've been putting anything "squirt" or "sponge" looking in that tub. One of my problems (and I have many) is trying to determine if they are heterotrophic and knowing if the lack of growth is because I've guessed wrong.
SteveU

When Detritovore asked if it was heterotrophic ... my brain kind of jammed. I "knew" it was heterotrophic, but when I summoned the synaptic network to identify a reference ... neural lock. Autotrophs? Then I remembered ... urochordata .. subphylum of chordata ... seen any autotrophic chordates running or swimming around lately? I don't think so. Symbiotic relationships? Yeah ... but the only references I could find, including Tyree's, talk about symbiotic cyanobacteria. Still looking for better references ... .

Sponges? ... well ... that's a whole different deal ... definite documentation of both symbiotic zooxanthellae and bacteria, particularly regarding upper reef zone "boring" sponges.


As far as Neptheis fasicicularis nutrition goes, Tyree writes this:

Nutrition: Phytoplankton, particulate matter, bacteria, dissolved organics. Will benefit from live phytoplankton additions.

Captive Requirements: ... Needs lots of live phytoplankton and will benefit from suspending particulate matter.

Extracted From:
The Ascidians (sea Squirts). Their Biology, Physiology and Natural Filtration Integration. (Volume 2 of the Captive Oceans Series). Steve Tyree, 2001, DE Publishing.

JMO ... HTH

[GTR]

Gary...

The wasting away as I recall was they observed with each regeneration the stalks became smaller until finally there was nothing remaining.

The flow entering this tub is just split from the main return pump. The real tanks get about 900gph (the 4 tanks are 72" x 12" x 12"). the left over flow goes into two of these tubs. The overflow from the ZEOtub is directed just in front of the main pump intake about 12" under the surface.
Bubbles are removed from the return with a series of two riser pipes which allow the air to escape and not be fed into the main pump. This works only because the flow is so low.

I have two of these tubs and only one has the ZEO reactor. The only thing I can see for sure is growing faster in the ZEOtub is several pieces of gloss black sponge.
I need to go by Tyree's and pick up some of his squirts.

I have several squirts that came in on soft corals but they seem to be doing well and I'd hate to kill them off by trying to remove them from the rock.

SteveU

[GTR]

Well I spent about 2 hours again with Tyree's book and coffee.
Interesting stuff for sure.

Things like...

"The heart of the ascidian is also unique because it changes the direction of it's flowing blood every few minutes."

Extracted From:
The Ascidians (sea Squirts). Their Biology, Physiology and Natural Filtration Integration. (Volume 2 of the Captive Oceans Series). Steve Tyree, 2001, DE Publishing.

It's not the changing direction that gets me.... just the fact the darn things have a heart and blood.


How about ...

"Vertebrates such as ourselves, generally assume that the invertebrates are less complex animals that are also not as evolutionary advanced. The ascidians present an oddity to our general perceptions of evolutionary advancement and development. Here we have an animal that begins its larval life as an "advanced" organism containing a vertebrate-like notochord, but when it undergoes metamorphosis into an adult it takes an evolutionary step backwards and turns itself into a "less complex" invertebrate. According to our perceptions of evolutionary development, the process of metamorphosis from an advanced protochordate to a less advanced invertebrate should be considered to be a mistake or an error in development."

Extracted From:
The Ascidians (sea Squirts). Their Biology, Physiology and Natural Filtration Integration. (Volume 2 of the Captive Oceans Series). Steve Tyree, 2001, DE Publishing.

Boy I sure think our perceptions are wrong.

Wonder if I can teach-em to fetch.

SteveU

[charles matthews]

charles matthews

Hello folks- honored by your thoughtful responses and kind welcome.

Some responses:

1) Regarding what Dendros and Scleros eat, it is not known. There are papers by Fabricius and Wittig that contain an argument surrounding phytoplankton uptake and assimilation. Summary- they are taken up by Dendros; assimulation is limited by inability to process more than a certain amount at the pharynx where a "block" occurs; they assimilate insufficient carbon to support their metabolism, perhaps 30% under heavy feeding conditions. MY OPINION: these studies do not take into account feeding behavior and mix, and adaptation of these heterotrophs. Particle size remains not defined. I see feeding response to Golden Pearls.

2) Low nutrient environment- a few exist in current-swept lagoons, according to Fabricius; others grow best projecting out into current, especially man-made structures such as oil rigs or oyster cages. There areas in the Red Sea where they have been observed in "crystal clear water". MY OPINION: current is the determining factor. They also may be sensitive to low O2. Perhaps more importantly, are they reacting negatively to Vibrio and other chem warfare products of the benthic environment in tanks? I THINK SO!! It's suggestive to look at the aquaculture results of shrimp growout, and the beneficial effectgs on growth of probiotics- sediments turn nasty when fed too much.

3) Marine snow reference- 1989 date. Since then, there have been many products developed for the shrimp aquaculture industry, which are basically colloids (I think, gelatin) with a fat/protein mix geared for suspension (which happens to be a good mix for suspension feeders!). I'm working with a company called Epicore to test their "liquid feed" for shrimp zoea- particle size 5-100 microns.

4) Bacteria- are they eating them? Sure makes sense that they would. I can find few references to bacterial levels in aquaria- it would be easy to test. Tyree's tests show LOW levels- but Bob Stark shows high levels. I could imagine either- the benthic environment biofilms "stick" on pelagic stuff anad farm it so I would think the levels would be low- however, any disturbance of sediment, or addition of phytoplankton which produces metabolites, produces a spike. If you look at the capturing mechanism of Dendros, they have a seive of about 60 microns, and a pharynx of 20 microns- they havea feeding responses to zooplankton substitutes I have observed SWEEPER TENTACLES as have others. I think they primarily need zooplankton of 5-100 microns- but it needs to be proved.

5) I think the Zeovite method may provide organically bound nutrients that are beneficial, similar to the diurnal sweep of sand beds at change of tides. It may be good to have two filters, and disturb one every twelve hours, in heavily fed tanks aimed at heterotrophs. Additionally, I think the lack of sand bed warfare may be a major benefit- no Vibrio and others (think shrimp zoea here)- due to the probiotic approach. Basically I presume that Zeovite is building on the aquaculture research here.

6) I find that a small aquarium plumbed to a larger one, allows concentrated feeding of a small number of organisms without overwhelming the system. I am now working with a 29 gallon with a long retention time, and essentially a 450 gallon sump!


Now, a heartfelt plea- can anybody out there HELP me get some video studies of the feeding behavior of Dendros? I am technically about as adept as a chimpanzee. Tell me somthing simple to buy that films at 5 microns at two inches, and inports into a MAC . Even better, can one of you guys do it at your place? Can I help fund your project? Can I buy you the dendros (I get mine from Tropicorium- **** Perrin knows how to ship these guys). I mean, I want those videos bad. We could document feeding response to various foods, pharyngeal processing (this is visible in the white ones), and growth sequences b polyp count. I think we would show sweeper tentacles, particle capture, and passive drifting zooplankton between 5 and 100 microns as the basic food- and perhaps work with the aquaculture industry to adapt one of their colloid suspension foods to metered or diurnal feeding.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

I think the Zeovite method may provide organically bound nutrients that are beneficial, similar to the diurnal sweep of sand beds at change of tides. It may be good to have two filters, and disturb one every twelve hours, in heavily fed tanks aimed at heterotrophs. Additionally, I think the lack of sand bed warfare may be a major benefit- no Vibrio and others (think shrimp zoea here)- due to the probiotic approach. Basically I presume that Zeovite is building on the aquaculture research here.

While I've never read anything from Mr. Pohl regarding the initial conceptualization of the ZEOvit method, the overlap with current trends in mariculture are unmistakeable.

Nothing particularly "cutting edge" about the use of zeolites and bacteria in mariculture ...

During the culture period, Ho uses locally produced zeolite at a rate of 200 kg/ha to improve water quality. He also uses the probiotic Epicin, manufactured by Epicore, USA, and Aqualact, manufactured by Biostadt, India. Both are live microbial probiotics. They are costly, but Ho thinks they provide some stability to the pond water and help build up good microorganisms.
Shrimp News

Marine snow reference- 1989 date. Since then, there have been many products developed for the shrimp aquaculture industry, which are basically colloids (I think, gelatin) with a fat/protein mix geared for suspension (which happens to be a good mix for suspension feeders!). I'm working with a company called Epicore to test their "liquid feed" for shrimp zoea- particle size 5-100 microns.

I'm generally surprised at how slowly mariculture products have historically been introduced into the marine ornamental industry ... strange ... go figure.

Epicore? Oooooo .. ahhhhh ... for those who are not familiar with Epicore, they are perhaps THE leading American manufacturer of products related to probiotic strategies of waste management and disease prevention in the shrimp farming industry ... among other things (like feeds/nutrition).

Epicore Product Listing

Very cool stuff ...