Fish Parasite?

[nbd13]

Hey guys well to make along story short, as most of you know i lost ALL of my fish except 3 of them.

The regal angel i got had a parasite on her and i did not quartine after all the reading i did.

anyway i lost all of my fairy wrasses and the only fish i have left are 1 foxface lo and 2 ocellaris.

now i am wondering why these 3 did not die?

i mean the angel and fairy wrasses all died from the same symptoms, so i am thinking its the same disease or parasite.

but now the key is why didnt the clowns and foxface die? just hardier? or what?

NEXT thing i do not plan to add anything for awhile till this algae goes away (i am noticing that its starting to receed slowly, but still plan to wait another 2ish months). but the key thing is when do i know it will be safe to add fish? i mean how do i know the parasite or disease is gone and its safe?

Final thing,

i am going to setup a quartine tank here pretty soon. maybe 50ish gallons, odd demensions though like 48 or 50" long by 16 or 18" wide and like 12" high will also serve as a frag tank later on, haha.

anyway what do i need for this? skimmer maybe euro-reef, should i throw some LR in there from my sump? i have 2 good sized pieces, then i could throw some PVC pieces in there when fish are in there. and of course a return pump, probably some mag9 or 12 and some powerheads in the tank maybe some seios...

anyway anyhelp would be great!

in 2 months i just dont want to loose any fish when i add them.

thanks!

Nick

[nbd13]

guess i should list the symptoms, haha.

1. saw they started to ignore food

2. started to swim around less

3. heavier breathing

4. noticed some white batches (not spots) on thier fins

5. then they would not be able to swim right (fins not working right)

6. VERY heavy breathing

7. death

hope that helps alittle.

Nick

[scottw]

I told you to wait on the fish but NOOOOOOOO you had to have it today, rather then wait until I could find you a good one.. See what you get, time for you to practice patients young padawon.

[wasp]

First off it should be identified, is it marine ich (irritans) or is it marine velvet?

If it is velvet, IMO action should be taken to cure / minimise.

If it is ich (irritans), then a leave alone approach can be attempted, however fish may still die of this and treatment may be appropriate.

Here is an article on ich (irritans)
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

And here is an article on marine velvet http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.php


Of special interest to some should be the section in the first article titled "Correcting myths about marine ich"

[nbd13]

Thanks,

Scott i know man, but this stupid regal was doing so good then BAM 2 weeks later its dead along with all of my fairy wrasses.

damn this sucks!

well i know what to do if its ich....

i will read up on marine velvet.

but if i have marine velvet shouldnt the other 3 fish die (2 clowns and 1 foxface lo)?

anyway any idea on when it will be sade to add fish again? i mean after my tank is stable and the algae goes away (2ish months)

thanks!

Nick

[nbd13]

alright well after reading both links (thanks BTW) i am not sure what it is.

i mean i did see signs of marine velvet, but the white blotches or batches lead me to think its ich. i mean if you read these 2 articles,

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.php

and

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

and look at the symptoms he list, they both have the same symptoms, BUT the only difference is the white spots, which i did see. so this leads me to think that its ich.

what do you guys think based on the symptoms i described?

also is there anything i should do with the 3 fish i have left? or should i just leave them in there. they must have obtained an immunity like the article said.

while i am still unsure about the specific disease,

how should i go about introducing new fish?

this was never a problem in my oldest tank 70 or my 180, but now in the new tank it is.

anyway what do you guys think here? when i do get a new fish, and intorduce it into the tank, wont it contract the ich that is already in the tank?

also let me know about the quartine tank, what exactly do i need.

thanks!

Nick

[wasp]

The 3 fish that survived will have done so because they are immune. However, as you have realised, low levels of ich may persist in the tank from the occassional successful infestation, and then infect a new fish when you introduce it.
Best plan IMO is to quarateen any new fish, then when you put them in the main tank, watch them carefully. Feed garlic, much anecdotal evidence this will help. If the fish gets a few spots, don't freak, feed well and observe. Only if the fish gets fairly bad remove and treat via hyposalinity. Do read up on hyposalinity as a treatment, many advantages over copper.
If the disease you had was marine velvet, it starts in the gills, and by the time you see it on the outside of the fish, the it is likely so advanced the fish is doomed.
A little known fact is that ich cannot survive in a tank for more than 12 months, unless new ich is introduced to reinvigorate "blood lines". So strive to ensure you QT all new fish thoroughly.
Also, you could solve the whole thing by removing the remaining fish you have to a QT, and treating with copper or hyposalinty. Leave your main tank fishless for 6 weeks, during which all ich will have died. Then replace the now cured fish, and vigorously QT all new arrivals.
There is a body of opinion that we should just accept and live with ich, this is because many aquarists see it come and go occasionally without much apparent harm. But there are also cases of people suffering nasty loses, yourself included. IMO some effort put into prevention, especially now while you only have 3 fish to QT, would be a worthwhile endeavour.
Here is an article on hyposalinity http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html

[GTR]

Many of these diseases lead to secondary bacterial infections which I think at times do much more harm than the original disease or parasite.

SteveU

[nbd13]

Thanks both of you.

so couple questions now.

1. if i do infact have marine velvet and NOT ich, and leave the 3 fish in there and do not treat them or take them out to be quartined. What are the chances when i introduce another fish to the tank down the road in 2 months, that the fish will get marine velvet.

I asked StevenPro on RC what he thought i had and he suggested marine velvet. (hes the author of the articles).

so what do you think if i do not take the 3 fish out and leave them in there, BUT quartine all new arrivals from now on for a good 6 weeks.

do you think if i introduced the fish into the tank that it will contract the marine velvet? or do you think it will be ok?

i am just confused with how long it will be safe to add new fish, with the 3 fish remaining in the tank now without any intervention (ie not taking them out of the tank).

thanks guys.

Nick

[wasp]

If it's velvet it can persist at a low level and infect a new fish, it's like tossing a dice, you just don't know.
Hypersaline treatment does not kill velvet, only ich (irritans).
So the only way to be certain would be remove them for 6 weeks and treat with copper. When I had a velvet outbreak a few months back I left the tank fishless for 8 weeks just to be sure.
However, chances are most likely it is gone, you could introduce new fish one at a time, several weeks apart, and observe. The situation you are in now most people would just slowly add new fish, and most of them would get away with it.
From what I know, which is limited, the main way to distinguish velvet, is very fast breathing and the fish gasping at the top, and quick mortality, within a few days of symptoms becoming visible. The fish will mostly have a powdery looking velvet on it, but this can vary. By this time the fish is likely doomed.
Ich ( irritans ) is a slower killer, faster breathing may be seen, but not generally gasping at the top.

If treating a sick fish, even with copper, lowering the salinity of the water will help the fish, because the fish is full of holes and can die by not being able to control it's osmotic pressure. Lowering the salinity to closer to the fish will help with this, and also assist the fish in it's efforts to fight infection.

[nbd13]

Thanks Wasp-

hey take a look heres the thread i was talking about.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=678942

could you take alook and see what you think.

thanks!

Nick

[wasp]

Yes I'd go with velvet.
The rest of the advice in that thread was all good.

One thing about velvet, although a full cure cannot be effected with hyposalinity treatment, a 5 minute fresh water dip will kill the non-encysted parasites on the fish, and at least afford some quick relief, while waiting for longer term treatment to kick in.

So really your options are only two.

1. remove the three fish and treat with copper leaving the main tank fallow for 6 weeks. Then you'll be clear.

Or -

2. Add new fish gradually and observe carefully. If any become infected, remove immediately ( with velvet, speed is of the essence ), give a 5 minute FW dip, and place in quaranteen with copper for 6 weeks. As velvet strikes in the gills and fish die of suffocation, keep QT well aerated, temp lowish ( holds more oxygen ) and lower salinity slowly to just below 1.020 to help them maintain osmotic balance.

[moonpod]

OK I'm a bit on the nihilistic side in terms of my fish, but this is what I do. First off, I only buy fish that I've seen personally at the wholesalers and that I believe are healthy. In your case, you need to find a quality LFS and buy fish that are healthy at the LFS AND you need to know what disease control measures they use at the LFS, b/c believe me they ALL do something. I also tend to run ozone which I personally believe knocks down water borne pathogens to a level that allow the fishes natural immunities to take over. Next, MATURE systems are much easier to add fish too than immature and Nick your system is majorly immature. Immature systems for whatever reasons suffer higher losses on introduction IME.

I do NOT QT. Am i gonna tell you that I've never had a tank wipeout? No. I have. But I find that by going very slowly early on I've had fewer problems. There are still species that I have trouble with, but I tend to have the--threw it in there and never saw it again deal, vs the threw it in there and my tank got wiped out.

Final little gem--LOTS of cleaner shrimp. No I don't believe that they biologically control the infections, but rather they make the fish more comfortable. Just my pet theory. Having your own little personal groomer makes life in the scary new tank more comfortable.

I don't so much like FW dips, but a little formalin or methylene blue dip I find to be harmless.

[nbd13]

thanks guys.

well i have a good LFS that can get me quailty stuff, so i will go with them.

now this is the problem,

i dont have a quartine tank up now or do i have the supplies to do so.

so basically quartine is out of the question at this point.

i know my system is very imature and i do not plan to add anything for a good while, like 2 months.

now the question comes, can marine velvet survive 2 months in my tank with the 3 current fish in there.

Wasp- i know you said some people at this point woudl add fish.

but i guess i am searching for a time frame that this marine velvet will disappear without intervention ie. not taking the 3 remaining fish out and treating with copper.

i mean will it always be there just in low amounts.

shoot i am not sure what to do at this point. i mean i still have 2ish months before i add anyother fish to the system.

thanks guys.

Nick

[moonpod]

just wait.

Velvet tends to come with the fish, not the system. ich is the system.