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**yzf** · 09-20-2005, 12:57 PM

I have been having this prob(red slime=cyno?) for a quite a while now. Pain in the A**. They just wouldn't go away. Tried some medication (forgot name) and red slime went away for a while but returns after i changed my lights. What can i do? Saw one thread earlier and the theory is to increase the bacteria population to overcome the red slime? Need experts advise.

Has been running Zeovit for quite a while now but have neglected it. Was only using it to control NO3 in my tank. Recently been collecting sps frags and wants to learn to control the system better. Thus the post.

Thanks all in advance :icon_redf

**Aged Salt** · 09-20-2005, 07:06 PM

Hi YZF, thnx. for your tank situation & welcome to ZEOvit.com. You can rid the cyano & have a beautiful reef, if you faithfully follow the ZEOvit method & it's guidelines. Be sure your product water is low in TDS, Si's & P04's. This is paramount or everything else you do is just "spinning your wheels". Check your Ca Rx's effluent as well for P04's. If detectable, run the effluent over a Al-based P04 remover. As you mentioned, keep the KH between 6-8 but stable. Maintain Mg level > 1250. For your system & your particular situation, I recommend the following:
1)dose 1 1/2 ltr. zeolites at a flow rate of 100-150gph[400-600 l/h]. Do not cycle your zeo-filter--run it continuously. Pump clean the stones 3-4x's/day daily. Exchange the stones every 6wks. Please repost your tank's situation at that time for adjustments in your dosages.
2)dose 250-350 ml. carbon in a filter sock, passively in your sump, kneaded 3x's/wk. Exchange the carbon every 4 wks. Be sure to use a low-P04 carbon & rinse this carbon in RODI water well before use. I use K-Z carbon with excellent results.
3)dose 6 drops Bak every other day for 2wks. with new zeolites, then 6 drops 2x's/wk. Dose these near the filter pump. Along with Food7 when Bak is dosed turn off your skimmer for 60min.
4)dose 2 drops Food7 every other day for 2wks. with new zeolites,then 2 drops 2x's/wk.
5)dose .2ml Start2 2x's/day daily. Dose this near the filter pump. It is not necessary to turn off your skimmer when just dosing Start2. Do not use Start1, & for the next 6wks. do not use any other supplements in your reef, including AAHC,PIF,SPG,Fe, etc. in order not to fuel the cyano. Of course, physically, remove the red stuff manually daily. Any questions? Bob

**mesocosm** · 09-20-2005, 10:12 PM

Greetings All !

Originally posted by yzf

I have been having this prob(red slime=cyno?) for a quite a while now. Pain in the A**. They just wouldn't go away. Tried some medication (forgot name) and red slime went away for a while but returns after i changed my lights. What can i do?

Many thanks for taking the time to answer the questions about your system ... very helpful!

When I attack cyano-bacteria outbreaks, my twisted little mind first turns to the issues of (1) excess nutrients, and (2) lack of adequate circulation. The fact that the outbreak recurred might be an indication that one, or both, of these two variables might still be out of balance.

Originally posted by yzf

Saw one thread earlier and the theory is to increase the bacteria population to overcome the red slime? Need experts advise.

The theory is generally referred to as "competitive exclusion." The idea is to increase the population of non-problem bacteria to the point that they out-compete the problem-bacteria for nutrients/resources to the point that the problem-bacteria population is unable to reproduce effectively.

Aged Salt's advise in pursuing this strategy while using the ZEOvit system is excellent ... as usual.

The removal of excess nutrients from your system, and a simultaneous increase in the sytem's circulation (to help facilitate nutrient removal, among other things ...) is a husbandry-based strategy for reducing cyano-bacteria outbreaks. Repeated manual siphoning of all visible cyano-bacteria is often helpful as system parameters move towards their new equilibria.

While I personally prefer to not use a chemical treatment for cyano-bacteria outbreaks, if you choose to go with the chemical treatment strategy, be careful which product you apply. Many products are erythromycin based. Such products are potentially VERY hazardous to biological filtration systems. I do not recommend their use. I have used Boyd Enterprises' "Chemi-Clean" product with great success ... it is not erythromycin-based (so they say). Protein skimming needs to be discontinued (... we're talking serious skimmer foam overflow here ...), and activated carbon needs to be removed, throughout the time of treatment. A SERIOUS manual siphoning of all visible cyano-bacteria prior to chemical treatment is recommended.

JMO ... HTH

**fkadir** · 09-20-2005, 10:30 PM

I second the Chemi-clean if everything else fails. Have used it in my setup once and switched off the skimmer for 48 hours cos it will seriously overflow as what mesocosm said followed by a major water change to remove the nutrients from the dissolved cyano. The cyano completely dissappeared and has never reared its ugly head since the treatment a few months ago.

The above was done of course when I have confirmed that nutrients/flow and everyting was not an issue. These are the basics and will need to be in place before attempting chemical means to expedite the elimination of cyano.

I believe that once already have an outbreak of cyano, its very difficult to contain and defeat it but once all traces of it is removed both by siphoning and chemical means, it will stay away if conditions and parameters are ideal. IF conditions are less than ideal, then it will come back after a while.

**yzf** · 09-21-2005, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Aged Salt

Hi YZF, thnx. for your tank situation & welcome to ZEOvit.com. You can rid the cyano & have a beautiful reef, if you faithfully follow the ZEOvit method & it's guidelines. Be sure your product water is low in TDS, Si's & P04's. This is paramount or everything else you do is just "spinning your wheels". Check your Ca Rx's effluent as well for P04's. If detectable, run the effluent over a Al-based P04 remover. As you mentioned, keep the KH between 6-8 but stable. Maintain Mg level > 1250. For your system & your particular situation, I recommend the following:
1)dose 1 1/2 ltr. zeolites at a flow rate of 100-150gph[400-600 l/h]. Do not cycle your zeo-filter--run it continuously. Pump clean the stones 3-4x's/day daily. Exchange the stones every 6wks. Please repost your tank's situation at that time for adjustments in your dosages.
2)dose 250-350 ml. carbon in a filter sock, passively in your sump, kneaded 3x's/wk. Exchange the carbon every 4 wks. Be sure to use a low-P04 carbon & rinse this carbon in RODI water well before use. I use K-Z carbon with excellent results.
3)dose 6 drops Bak every other day for 2wks. with new zeolites, then 6 drops 2x's/wk. Dose these near the filter pump. Along with Food7 when Bak is dosed turn off your skimmer for 60min.
4)dose 2 drops Food7 every other day for 2wks. with new zeolites,then 2 drops 2x's/wk.
5)dose .2ml Start2 2x's/day daily. Dose this near the filter pump. It is not necessary to turn off your skimmer when just dosing Start2. Do not use Start1, & for the next 6wks. do not use any other supplements in your reef, including AAHC,PIF,SPG,Fe, etc. in order not to fuel the cyano. Of course, physically, remove the red stuff manually daily. Any questions? Bob

K. Understand. I'm using carbon now. Only thing is that i do not have RODI unit. Not sure if that's where the problem is. Will try to stick to the dosing part. THankS for the fast response.

**yzf** · 09-21-2005, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by mesocosm

Greetings All !

Many thanks for taking the time to answer the questions about your system ... very helpful!

When I attack cyano-bacteria outbreaks, my twisted little mind first turns to the issues of (1) excess nutrients, and (2) lack of adequate circulation. The fact that the outbreak recurred might be an indication that one, or both, of these two variables might still be out of balance.

The theory is generally referred to as "competitive exclusion." The idea is to increase the population of non-problem bacteria to the point that they out-compete the problem-bacteria for nutrients/resources to the point that the problem-bacteria population is unable to reproduce effectively.

Aged Salt's advise in pursuing this strategy while using the ZEOvit system is excellent ... as usual.

The removal of excess nutrients from your system, and a simultaneous increase in the sytem's circulation (to help facilitate nutrient removal, among other things ...) is a husbandry-based strategy for reducing cyano-bacteria outbreaks. Repeated manual siphoning of all visible cyano-bacteria is often helpful as system parameters move towards their new equilibria.

While I personally prefer to not use a chemical treatment for cyano-bacteria outbreaks, if you choose to go with the chemical treatment strategy, be careful which product you apply. Many products are erythromycin based. Such products are potentially VERY hazardous to biological filtration systems. I do not recommend their use. I have used Boyd Enterprises' "Chemi-Clean" product with great success ... it is not erythromycin-based (so they say). Protein skimming needs to be discontinued (... we're talking serious skimmer foam overflow here ...), and activated carbon needs to be removed, throughout the time of treatment. A SERIOUS manual siphoning of all visible cyano-bacteria prior to chemical treatment is recommended.

JMO ... HTH

Nutrient is prob the issue. Some Reds are in the path of the tunze. They are on the Zoas. Not sure why they didn't fly off

I kind of remember that it appears when i just changed my T5s. I think the same reason for cyano outbreak the last time round.
Looks like i will need to break my back for this.. How abt turkey blasting? Will it spread like fire?? Cos blasting will save some time..Hee.

**yzf** · 09-21-2005, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by fkadir

I second the Chemi-clean if everything else fails. Have used it in my setup once and switched off the skimmer for 48 hours cos it will seriously overflow as what mesocosm said followed by a major water change to remove the nutrients from the dissolved cyano. The cyano completely dissappeared and has never reared its ugly head since the treatment a few months ago.

The above was done of course when I have confirmed that nutrients/flow and everyting was not an issue. These are the basics and will need to be in place before attempting chemical means to expedite the elimination of cyano.

I believe that once already have an outbreak of cyano, its very difficult to contain and defeat it but once all traces of it is removed both by siphoning and chemical means, it will stay away if conditions and parameters are ideal. IF conditions are less than ideal, then it will come back after a while.

The slime was away for say ..1 yr ..until i changed my bulb recently. When you mention Major Water change, how much is it? 50%?

They are very irritating.

Btw in which part of the world are you at??

**Aged Salt** · 09-21-2005, 11:49 AM

Hi Yzf, if your source water is high in TDS/Si's or P04's, then water changes will be of no help, as you're still fueling the red stuff with nutrient-rich water. Bob

**GTR** · 09-21-2005, 12:36 PM

Blasting it off the rocks will send much of it somewhere to die and release it's nutrients back into the water. That's why chemical treatment will work only short term. All healthy tanks will have it one place or another IMO and is only a problem when nutrients are higher than desired for a reef. Look at it as a signal of the overall condition of water quality.
I see it in a lot of LFS due to the high number of specimems being introduced. That's just like cycling LR to some degree.
SteveU

**mesocosm** · 09-21-2005, 09:45 PM

Greetings All !

Originally posted by yzf

The slime was away for say ..1 yr ..until i changed my bulb recently.

Light and cyanobacteria blooms ... hmmm ... this could be a factor that might need additional attention when discussing control strategies.

Check this out ... abstract only ... sorry ...

Growth and light absorption of some planktonic cyanobacteria, diatoms and Chlorophyceae under simulated natural light fluctuations

A Nicklisch
Humboldt-University Berlin, Institute of Biology, Luisenstrasse 53, D-10099 Berlin, Germany

Specific growth rates of Limnothrix redekei, Planktothrix agardhii (cyanobacteria), Synedra acus, Stephanodiscus minutulus (diatoms), Scenedesmus acuminatus and Scenedesmus armatus (Chlorophyceae) were compared under different time structures of illumination, but the same daily light exposure, at 20C. Fluctuating irradiance simulating a uniform rapid transport of the algal cells across the aquatic light field on a cloudless day with cu/mix = 1 was compared with constant irradiance throughout the same photoperiod of 12 h length as well as a photoperiod of 6 h length. Fluctuating light (30 min for a cycle) resulted in a decrease in specific growth rates as compared with constant irradiance at the same photoperiod length. This decrease amounts to 15-20% for diatoms, 20-25% for Chlorophyceae and 35-40% for cyanobacteria, respectively. The decrease is somewhat lower if the fluctuations simulating mixing are slower (60 min for a cycle). The specific growth rate is also decreased by a shorter photoperiod, but this effect is more species specific. Regarding the in vivo absorption spectra, fluctuating light or a shorter photoperiod has little or no effect on the Chlorophyceae and diatoms studied, whereas cyanobacteria show an increase in light absorption by chlorophyll and phycobilins.

Extracted From:
http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...tract/20/1/105

"Fluctuating light (30 min for a cycle) resulted in a decrease in specific growth rates as compared with constant irradiance at the same photoperiod length. This decrease amounts to 15-20% for diatoms, 20-25% for Chlorophyceae and 35-40% for cyanobacteria, respectively" ... a potential 35% decrease just by restting timer controls ...

...hmmm ... and ...

"... whereas cyanobacteria show an increase in light absorption by chlorophyll and phycobilins."

Seems these pesky little beasties might be more vulnerable to manipulation of lighting than is commonly acknowledged.

Just a thought ...

**fkadir** · 09-21-2005, 09:54 PM

Mesocosm, what I noticed from my cyano outbreak was that it only seem to grow at areas on the sandbed where it is brightly litted by my 10kk MHs (irrelevant of flow). Areas where there is relativley low flow and no direct exposure to the MHs do not have a trace of cyano but areas where there is considerable flow and high light gets hit the worst. Just an observation in case it helps in anyway.

**losmandy** · 09-21-2005, 10:11 PM

Farish, if what you said about lights and flow is true then your cyanos should be growing at the top part of your rock scapes.

**fkadir** · 09-21-2005, 10:22 PM

It might be growing on just the sandbed due to the leaching nutrients. Maybe in this case, it uses the leaching nutrients and also intense light for growth..

Mesocosm, what do you think?

**mesocosm** · 09-22-2005, 12:14 AM

Greetings All !

Originally posted by fkadir

Mesocosm, what I noticed from my cyano outbreak was that it only seem to grow at areas on the sandbed where it is brightly litted by my 10kk MHs (irrelevant of flow). Areas where there is relativley low flow and no direct exposure to the MHs do not have a trace of cyano but areas where there is considerable flow and high light gets hit the worst. Just an observation in case it helps in anyway. ... Mesocosm, what do you think?

I'm thinking ... microclimates, microhabitats, and photosynthetic radiation ... oh my.

A couple of years ago I participated ... briefly .. in Dr. Shimek's online Deep Sand Beds: Theory & Practice course. The reading material that he provided was great. One of the papers described the microclimate that formed between the surface of the DSB and the macroalgae immediately adjacent to the DSB ... fascinating interactions between the metabolic products of the sand bed and macroalgae.

Cyanobacteria are ubiquitous in our systems. They're literally everywhere, all the time. Why don't we see observe them accordingly? Because typically there is not a localized nutrient source (microhabitat) rich enough to generate and sustain populations large enough to observe. In regions were nutrients accumulate ... typically due to overfeeding, inadequate filtration, inadequate circulation ... the cyanobacteria that would normally just "hang out" ... unobserved ... become able to reproduce. Rapidly. When you add the additional growth energy source of photosynthetic radiation, you get really rapid reproduction.

Originally posted by fkadir

Areas where there is relativley low flow and no direct exposure to the MHs do not have a trace of cyano but areas where there is considerable flow and high light gets hit the worst.

No contradiction with the model I'm suggesting. The low flow & low light area is a microclimate which does not provide the necessary "energy" to support rapid reproduction. While the high flow & high light area is a microclimate which does provide the necessary "energy" for rapid reproduction.

Notice that I'm speaking in terms of "energy", as opposed to "nutrients".

Some definitions ...

Nutrient:

Element or compound essential for animal and plant growth. Common nutrients in fertilizer include nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium.
water.usgs.gov/pubs/circ/circ1166/nawqa91.e.html

Any substance assimilated by living things that promotes growth. The term is generally applied to nitrogen and phosphorus in wastewater, but is also applied to other essential and trace elements.
www.nsc.org/ehc/glossar1.htm

A substance that promotes growth
whyfiles.larc.nasa.gov/text/kids/Problem_Board/problems/habitat/glossary.html

Energy:

Energy is the capacity to do work. Organisms are essentially machines for the transformation of energy.
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:Q...e:energy&hl=en

An abstract property defined as the capacity to do work. The basic forms of energy include chemical, electrical, mechanical, nuclear and radiant (light).
www.visionlearning.com/library/pop_glossary_term.php

Energy is a 1988 album by the punk band Operation Ivy.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_(album)

Okay .. you can ignore the punk band stuff ...

... the things search engines spit out ...

My point is that in terms of ecosystems ... which our aquaria are, by definition (no one is running a "closed system", at least not in terms of the Physics) ... it's the the interrelationship between nutrients and energy ... in all their forms ... that determines an organism's ability to reproduce. When I encounter cyanobacteria outbreak situations that don't fit the "high nutrient & low flow" model typically discussed on the internet, I find that "taking a step back" and incorporating/including the concept of available energy ... like photosynthetic radiation (as opposed to the chemical energy of nutrients) ... oftentimes helps to explain things better.

The "high flow & high light" situation is one where the cyanobacteria are utilizing energy produced by photosynthesis for reproduction. Absent the light energy source, the nutrient levels alone probably would not support rapid reproduction. That's assuming "all other things being equal", and that there's not a significant nutrient imbalance occurring throughout the ecosystem.

Having ranted all that, it seems to me that what yzf is observing in his system is a nutrient-based ... chemical energy ... situation. The change in lights just added a little more energy. More fuel to an pre-existing fire. The underlying problem is probably excess nutrients.

JMO ... HTH

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