Zeo questions

[alazo1]

Hi all,
I've been reading here and other forums about zeo and am really thinking about starting out. Wondering if you can answer a few questions:

I have a dsb and wondering if I should take it out. I'd really rather not due to the LR is on PVC and I'd have to tear the whole reef up. The post I've read say that it is ok to keep (I currently don't have a nutrient problem, not detectable at least).

I have a small refugium and would like to keep it. It appears that once the nutrient levels go down macroalgea would not be possible but I'd still like to keep. Do the little creatures from the fuge stay plentiful?.


I'll be purchasing the reactor (no top). I have a net of about 60g. From what the guide says it looks like I'll need .6 liter of zeo. This would equal to 60gph flow. What do you think is the best way to achive this (small powerhead??). I'd rather get a dedicated pump without having to plumb a valve to reduce flow so there are no flow errors but sure could use some feedback.



thanks for any advice you can give me,
Albert

[scottw]

Welcome Albert,

No you don’t have to take out your DSB, many are using ZEO with DSB. It will take a bit longer for ZEO to strip out the nutrients from the sand but you can use it.

With the low nutrient tank your fuge will serve no purpose most algae’s will not grow.

Go with Madison’s reactor (no top) its the best bang for the buck . I use one go with a ehiem pump or something that you can use specific to the reactor, then use a ball valve to restrict the flow.. You want like you said 60 gallons/hour

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Albert,

Sorry about pm you ...

Sorry I took so long getting back to you ... I got your PM just before I had to go to work. You ... and anyone else who is registered in this forum ... should NEVER hesitate to PM me. Long have I drunk from the wellspring of expertise and knowledge supplied freely by the people who operate and frequent this website. It is a privilege to have the opportunity to return the favor.

I have a small refugium and would like to keep it. It appears that once the nutrient levels go down macroalgea would not be possible but I'd still like to keep.

The macroalgae will not function as an effective nutrient exporter in a developing ZEOvit system. From the perspective of my limited experience with my ZEOvit system, 90% of the macroalgae that existed on the polyp frags that were in the tank when I started using the ZEOvit system two weeks ago did not survive the first 72 hours ... first they bleached out completely, then they disappeared. I still have one frag with 3 small clumps of Bryopsis on it, but the alga is not growing at all. Soon they too will have moved on.

Do the little creatures from the fuge stay plentiful?

Off to another rant ... what a shock ... ...

As with most simple organisms, population is largely a function of available resources. If the macroalgae served as the primary food source for the microfauna and macrofauna inhabiting your refugium, their populations will diminish as the macroalgae diminishes. The good news is that by supplementing their habitat with another food source, there is no reason that population density and some diversity cannot be maintained.

Supplemental food sources can be as simple as nori, "seaweed selects", and crumbled spirulina tablets/flakes ... or as advanced as the various formulated larval diets used in the aquaculture industry.

Examples of aquaculture level stuff can be seen at:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/...ories/ssid/260.

Any of the aforementioned ... introduced into a small, sequestered refugium habitat ... should serve quite nicely to maintain at least some of your microfauna and macrofauna populations independent of the presence of live macroalgae.

Another idea ... if your are maintaining tangs or "safe" angelfish in your display you might wish to supplement their diet with live Gracilaria sp. macroalgae. You can place the Gracilaria in your refugium to keep it alive while you feed portions of it daily to your display. The refugium beasties will munch on it in the meantime, helping to maintain their population levels. However, please remember that only 10% ... at most ... of any food source that we introduce into our systems is actually utilized be the creature(s) that consume it. The rest is eventually metabolized and passed into solution. I'm unaware of any posted information regarding this feeding/culture strategy as it pertains to ZEOvit systems, so monitoring for any adverse system tendencies would be in order ... but as long as it's not overdone, it should not be a problem. My next ZEOvit system will contain an Achilles tang, and I'll report back to everyone regarding how this strategy works out.

... just reading your response to the refugium thread and wonder how you feel about a dsb with zeo.

In terms of the consensus of opinion regarding DSBs and the ZEOvit system, I think that scottw said it all.

In terms of my own feelings ... not having run a DSB with the ZEOvit system ... yet ... I think that it holds intriguing possibilities. Not in terms of DSBs as a filtration component within a ZEOvit system (... I just don't see the need ...), but in terms of biodiversity. Biodiversity is GOOD, and anything that we can do to increase it is GOOD.

If you haven't already, please consider reading this ...
Feeding Begets Food, 1
or…
Food Production By Design, How A Deep Sand Bed Can Produce Food For Reef Inhabitants.
By Ronald L. Shimek, Ph. D.
http://www.dtplankton.com/sandbeds.htm

While it is possibile ... probable? ...that the nutrient flow into a ZEOvit system is different from the nutrient flow into a Berlin-style with DSB system, it seems to me that the basic operating parameters should ... could? ... be relatively the same. The nutrient/energy flow into and through ZEOvit systems could be a fascinating area of focus in the future.

BTW, the article contains stuff like this:

"... researchers rapidly came to the conclusion that corals were not totally predatory, but rather were symbiotic organisms, and that the zooxanthellae provided some essential nutrition to the coral animal. Subsequent work showed that for short periods, the zooxanthellae could provide all of the respiratory energy requirements for at least some corals, for periods up to a day. This conclusion, of course, got published in the scientific press, and made it into textbooks and, almost immediately, it was misinterpreted."
- Dr. Ron Shimek.

" Particulate organic material is found in all natural sea water and is common in our aquarium waters as well. Often the particles are so small that they are not visible to the unaided eye. Such particles are small blobs of organic material, and they are covered with bacteria which are digesting them. Other such particles may simply be bacterial in origin. Bacteria are a very good source of useable nitrogen, as the bacterial cells have a higher ratio of nitrogen to carbon than do either plant or animal cells. The particles forming particulate organic material are often very small and most bacterioplankton are even smaller, so a couple of questions need to be asked. First, do corals actively feed on this material, and second is there enough of it in the normal water flowing over a reef to actually provide much nutrition on the reef. The answer to both questions is a resounding, "Yes." "
- Dr. Ron Shimek.

"We now recognize several different categories of what may loosely be called microplankton. This is material that, by definition, is too small to be collected in the normal plankton collection devices used for either zooplankton or phytoplankton. It was simply missed by earlier workers; however, as more work is being done it has become apparent that microplankton provides a tremendous amount of food to coral reefs."
- Dr. Ron Shimek.

Extracts such as these, cut loose from their original context, require their complete context to convey their full meaning ... I respectfully suggest that this article is well worth the time that it takes to read it. Interpret it at your own peril, and for your own enrichment. Apologies for posting information out of original context ...

... let the flogging begin ... .


Albert,
Apologies for getting a little sidetracked here. If there's anything else I can do to help, please don't hesitate to contact me.

BTW, A listing of Dr. Shimek's online articles is available at:
http://www.rshimek.com/reef/OnlineArticles.htm

HTH.

[alazo1]

Thanks for the info guys..really appreciate it.
Gary, I read the article from Shimek last night. I've read others but not this one, very interesting. I still wonder if I should take my sand sifting starfish out. There seems to be much debate as to if they strip the sand bed or not. I've had mine for about 2 years and is still alive so at least there is some life in the sand bed. Do you think I should take this guy out of the tank?. I do have bunch of Nassauris snails that seem to do ok at sifting the sand.

It appears that the Zeo system does a good job at feeding the corals which is why a dsb is not used by many but where does the food come from and what kinds, I don't quite understand this. From the shaking of the zeolite I would assume that it gets populated by the bacteria that eats ammonia (nitro something or other..LOL). BTW..though I've been trying (with limited success to keep sps corals for a few years I do not claim that I know alot about the subject as you can see by my writing so please anyone feel free to correct me, that is how we learn. Anyways this bacteria I thought had to go to another stage ..nitrate to be benefial to corals. By reading posts the corals seem to love when the filter gets stirred so what is it that is getting released?.
As far as the microorganisms that are in zeofood, are like the ones that are released naturally in a well stablished sand bed but in a more controlled fashion right?. Are these microorganisms alive?.

Well you said to ask away so I did. It would be cool for one of you gurus to write a more detailed paper about how the system works. It may not be needed for success but at least it would be very educational.

thanks again for your input everyone!!
Albert

[Aged Salt]

Hi Albert, I'll bang away at a few of your questions. The "duff" that is released from the zeolites when cleaned is probably composed of bacteria-detritus-P04 bonded mulm which corals can feed as can your skimmer I beleive you are referring to ZeoBak which contains encapsulated bacteria. ZeoFood nourishes both bacteria & your corals. Bob

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

I still wonder if I should take my sand sifting starfish out. There seems to be much debate as to if they strip the sand bed or not. ... Do you think I should take this guy out of the tank?.

There isn't much debate among the folks whose opinions I respect regarding this issue. From a "theory" perspective, I view sand sifting starfish as disruptive to a DSB. They are consuming portions of the meiofauna and infauna populations ... the very populations whose biomass and diversity should be maximized in a DSB.

(I currently don't have a nutrient problem, not detectable at least).

I am LOATHE to modify a successful system (... by adding "things", or removing "things" ...) merely for the sake of theory "correctness." Keep in mind that your DSB is dynamic. Changes need to be recognized and responded to.

As far as the microorganisms that are in zeofood, are like the ones that are released naturally in a well stablished sand bed but in a more controlled fashion right?

Assuming the we are talking about ZeoBak, as opposed to ZeoFood, I am not aware of any documented correlation between the microorganisms used by the ZEOvit system, and the microorganisms produced by a well established aquarium DSB.

HTH.

[OUinLA]

Gary, I have one thing to say to you, "post more often" Your expertise is very much appreciated and enjoyed by all of us.

As for the pump for your reactor, I can't think of the exact model number but Eheim makes some great pumps that are very close to the gph you need. they are also very affordable.