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**Aquatic Image** · 03-31-2005, 07:46 PM

If it were me I would do the AT. But thats just my preference.

**nbd13** · 03-31-2005, 08:01 PM

i really love the black and orange on the AT.

i guess i should have asked which one is more likely to get ick?

thanks!

Nick

**Diesel3443** · 03-31-2005, 08:04 PM

AT all the way, but im partial to them

**nbd13** · 03-31-2005, 08:06 PM

Do you have one Sean?

thanks!

Nick

**Tom Berry** · 03-31-2005, 08:27 PM

You like those rare fairy wrasses, don't you? They are less aggressive, more peaceful fish. Do you think they'll be okay with the clowns (which are basically damsels in pajamas

) and angel? I've lost a couple of rare, expensive ones, and it's no fun.

Tom

**Diesel3443** · 03-31-2005, 08:35 PM

I wish I did Nick, but my tank is too small

**nbd13** · 03-31-2005, 08:43 PM

Tom, you dont think the fairys will be ok with the clowns? i never even thought that clowns could be a problem? or an angel?

what do you think about the tang choice Tom? would a foxface fit in better with the fairy wrasses?

I love these fish so beautiful! and so many choices haha! i have a covered back (my canopy back is open) i closed it off with mess stuff used in screen doors.

so Tom do you think the tang is too agressive? or even for that matter the angel?

thanks!

Nick

**nbd13** · 03-31-2005, 08:45 PM

Tom also what fairy wrasses did you have? also what other fish did you have them with? i assume in that 75 right? woudl a bigger tank (180 in my case) help at all?

thanks!

Nick

**mesocosm** · 03-31-2005, 10:02 PM

Greetings All !

Apologies for length ... I've got alot to say about this ...

... I'll try not to be too abusive ...

mesocosm- what fish is more difficult to keep In your opipion the powder blue or the anchilles tang? i want to put 1 in my 180 SPS tank with the following fish ...

God ... they're both two of my favorites ...

Which is more Difficult? I would suspect that in terms of reputation, it would have to be the Achilles, but ... IME ... they both present virtually the same "problem" set. That set being: (1) Finding a truly healthy specimen to begin with; (2) Tendency to breakout with some form of ecto-parasite, typically Cryptocaryon irritans; (3) Finding the "right"/acceptable diet; (4) Dealing with their territoriality/aggression issues ... these are both genus Acanthurus species, after all; (5) Long-term "housing" ... these get to be big boys who like lots of distance/volume to play in.

Judging by your posts and tank description, issues (4) and (5) wouldn't really seem to be at issue. That leaves (1) thru (3) ...

(1) Finding a truly healthy specimen to begin with;

Welcome to the game ... . If you're connected to any local club(s), you might consider asking if there's anyone who is interested in parting with the species you choose ... this is perhaps the ultimate in healthy specimen/known history opportunity. Taking your time and waiting for a "good" specimen at your LFS is always an option. If that's not a viable option, you might consider "special ordering" through an LFS. If you've got the time/patience/money ... and trust in the judgement/expertise of the folks at the LFS ...then special ordering through them is perhaps a good option. I do this kind of thing with select customers all the time ... especially in the pursuit of "exceptional" Achilles specimens. Just be prepared to assume some of the financial risk to this process.

I'm ranting about this because ... IME ... WHERE these species come from is CRITICAL. Both species are widely distributed throughout the Pacific. Unfortunately, that includes the Phillipines and Indonesia. Don't kid yourself, cyanide collecting is alive and well in those regions ... and others ... so source location is important. If your local sources are using the LAX/104th street distributors, I've had the best success in acquiring these species through Pacific Aqua Farms, Sea Dwelling Creatures, or Quality Marine.

No good local source? The best choice that I'm aware of online is Dennis Reynold's Aqua Marines ... I "fight" with them over specimens three times a week on 104th street ... They seem like nice people, and they seem to be very good at what they do. You'll pay the extra percentage, but to me it's money well spent. If you go with any of the LAX jobbers, let me know ... I can help with identifying good shipments so that you can dispatch them to get your specimen.

Aqua Marines
http://www.am4fish.com

IMO ... the best Achilles colors are on specimens from the Marshall Islands, and the best Powder Blue colors are on specimens from Christmas Island. Definitely worth the extra money ... IMO.

If you want me to get into some of the "special for these species" physical and behavioral characteristics that I look for, let me know ...

... happy to rant ...

...

... but I'd bet serious money you don't need my input.

(2) Tendency to breakout with some form of ecto-parasite, typically Cryptocaryon irritans

Powder Blues ... especially ... IME. You might consider placing special emphasis on the "typical" purchase observations regarding either species.

(3) Finding the "right"/acceptable diet

This area is the one I consider to be the "Biggie", not just for these species, but for all Acanthurus species. These guys are GRAZERS. Acanthurus tangs whose primary food source is from grazing are happy Acanthurus tangs. Happy Acanthurus tangs generally don't die easily. My "secret" is Gracilaria ... aka "ogo."

This ogo thing is the "trick" that I've discovered to keeping Achilles and Powder Blue specimens alive ... no kidding ... grazing Acanthurus tangs are happy Acanthurus tangs. It's been my experience that most of the problems with these two species all boils down to not getting a healthy specimen to start with, and improper diet. There's a reason that virtually every Acanthurus tang at most of the LAX/104th street wholesalers has Gracilaria available to them 24/7 ... wholesalers don't make any money ... generally ... from dead specimens. And while I lack the peer-reviewed documentation to "prove" it, I am convinced that Acanthurus tangs with a diet comprised primarily of live macroalgae demonstrate significantly less disease pathology.

Proper diet = less disease ... what a concept ...

i want to put 1 in my 180 SPS tank with the following fish ...

Impressive list ... pictures ... I want pictures. I don't see any a priori compatability issues, but we're talking about Acanthurus tangs here ... you pays your money, and you takes your chances. I think your odds are pretty good.

then either the PB of the AT?

Achilles ... they're just too cool ...

FYI ...

Fishbase.org Achilles Tang page:
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Spec...sname=achilles

Fishbase.org Powder Blue page:
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Spec...e=leucosternon

More FYI ...

Sea Dwelling Creatures
http://www.seadwelling.com

Pacific Aqua Farms
http://www.pacificaquafarms.com

Quality Marine
http://www.qualitymarineusa.com/home.html

* These folks are wholesalers, so if you can't direct your LFS to them, you'll need a resale license, and be able to meet their minimum purchase requirements.

JMO ... HTH ...

**Aged Salt** · 04-01-2005, 02:29 PM

Gary, again, as usual, just damn good information,

thnx. Bob

**nbd13** · 04-01-2005, 08:14 PM

Wow thanks for the Help! and info!

The one thing that concerns me is that these tangs both of them are agressive. The fairy wrasses might not fair so well. I mean after droping this kind of cash for these fairy wrasses, i am not willing for some other fish to kill them! theres just no way i want to waste this kind of money.

i love both of these tangs, but i just dont know with the current fairy wrasses if it will work.

i was thinking instead of the tang adding one of these fish,

Copperband Butterfly
Foxface
Goldflake or Regal or Majestic Angel (which ever one i can find eating well and in good condition).

i mean would you risk that kind of money? i mean i just dont know if i can risk this? are the fairy wrasses going to get killed by the tang i choose? i heard anchilles are agressive? is it just a matter of time before the AT gets pissed off and kills the fairy wrasses?

or am i ok?

let me know.

thanks!

Nick

**mesocosm** · 04-02-2005, 01:51 PM

Greetings All !

The one thing that concerns me is that these tangs both of them are agressive. The fairy wrasses might not fair so well ... are the fairy wrasses going to get killed by the tang i choose? i heard anchilles are agressive?

My compatability concerns involving Family Acanthuridae (Tangs/Surgeonfishes) are focused primarily upon intra-genus, and intra-species relationships ... how Tangs interact with other Tangs. Primary ... because it's the "between Tangs" behavior that is potentially the most immediately violent and lethal, and because it's something I've had good success manipulating. If you're only going to have one species, what is of primary concern to me is irrelevant for your situation.

The behavior of Tangs within the tank's overall "social hierarchy" is, for me, a secondary concern, albeit a very important concern. Secondary ... because I've encountered significant difficulty in predicting ... let alone controlling ... the functioning of social structures involving specimens that might NEVER interact outside of a captive aquarium environment. If anyone out there has figured out the "how cold-blooded vertebrates with significant personality variations are going to interrelate with one another in captive micro-habitats" calculus works, I'd REALLY like to see your equations ... mine are only partially successful ...

... and it's been driving me nuts for years ...

All I can rant about is my experience ... I have no absolute answers. 90% confidence intervals ... yes. 99% confidence intervals ... no. Given that ... IME ...

We're talking about how an Acanthurus species will behave within a social hierarchy composed primarily of Cirrhilabrus species wrasses, aka "fairy wrasses." At the LFS that I work at, I regularly introduce Acanthurus tangs into tanks with single and/or multiple Cirrhilabrus wrasses ... generally speaking ... no worries. The situation I've encountered the most problems with is the reverse: introducing Cirrhilabrus wrasses into tanks in which an Acanthrus tang has already "established" a "territory." Since you're talking about ... I believe ... introducing an Acanthrus into an established fairy wrasse hierarchy, my experience is that there shouldn't be that big of an issue ... if any. Sequence of introduction is a major factor in determining social hierarchy behavioral outcomes.

But we're talking the creation of a dynamic social hierarchy between tangs and wrasses here ... both extremely "high personality", "high individuality" groups of fishes. The calculus that gives you a 99% confidence level prediction just isn't there ... at least I haven't come across it yet. Don't be surprised when others post experiences which are the exact opposite of mine .

Welcome to the wonderland of tangs and wrasses ...

... my experience is that there shouldn't be that big of an issue ... if any.

And yet ... what we're really talking about is who rules your tank's kingdom ... after you. I have a hard time visualizing either an Achille's Tang, or a Powder Blue Tang, not trying to exert dominance ... a really hard time (... again, exceptions abound, and others are likely to have different experiences with their specimens ...). The question then becomes, "How much injury, disease, and death ... usually in that order ... is going to take place as the new social hierarchy becomes established?" IME ... FWIW ... given the species and their "typical" behavioral patterns, I wouldn't think establishing the "new order" would take too long, or that it would be particularly bloody ... Acanthurus tangs are usually pretty good at establishing dominance. Then again, if you have a Cirrhilabrus wrasse who decides that he is no ones' "female dog in heat" ... well ...

Welcome to the wonderland of tangs and wrasses ...

is it just a matter of time before the AT gets pissed off and kills the fairy wrasses?

That hasn't been my experience ... social hierachies, left undisturbed, tend to remain stable. However, coloration development, growth in size, and reproductive cues/behaviors can disturb the stability of any social hierarchy ... and all three of these factors have a component of time. Go figure ... .

Then again, I've had Powder Blues who played happily with their fairy wrasse buddies for a long time. One day they woke up, munched their Gracilaria, frolicked awhile with their fairy wrasse buddies ... then they calmly picked up their rifles, climbed up into a water tower, and began ...

...

Go figure ...

i was thinking instead of the tang adding one of these fish, ...

I have a real appreciation for Solomon Island Regal (Pygoplites diacanthus) Angels ... but now you've wandered into the land of, "Will my Regal eat?"

i mean would you risk that kind of money? i mean i just dont know if i can risk this? are the fairy wrasses going to get killed by the tang i choose?

Sorry this isn't more helpful, but ... IME ... you pays your money, and you takes your chances.

Welcome to the wacky world of marine ornamental artistry ...

FYI ...

Fishbase.org search:
http://www.fishbase.org/search.cfm

Cirrhilabrus species links page:
http://www.fishbase.org/NomenClature...ry&backstep=-2

More specific FYI ...

Cirrhilabrus laboutei
Laboute's wrasse
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Spec...sname=laboutei

Cirrhilabrus laboutei
Laboute's wrasse
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Spec...sname=laboutei

Pygoplites diacanthus
Regal angelfish
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Spec...ame=diacanthus

JMO ... HTH ...

**nbd13** · 04-02-2005, 02:41 PM

WOW great i mean GREAT reply!

ok couple of questions, i am ruling out the tang, i cant risk it, so,

1. i have read and read and read so more on regals and know how hard they are to get to eat and find a healthy one from the RED SEA! And on top of that theya re still a risk to my SPS! So i am sure i could keep a regal with the fairy wrasses. Maybe you can help me find one.

2. What do you think about the copperband? i know they are hard to find eating too, but are they that agressive? will they work with wrasses in your experience?

3. What about the foxface? do you think that could be keep with fairy wrasses? i know they are not that agressive as tangs?

so out of the Regal, Copperband, or Foxface which do you think is better? i mean in the store what behavior have you seen with these fish?

thanks again!

Nick

**mesocosm** · 04-02-2005, 03:39 PM

Greetings All !

i have read and read and read so more on regals and know how hard they are to get to eat and find a healthy one from the RED SEA! And on top of that theya re still a risk to my SPS! So i am sure i could keep a regal with the fairy wrasses. Maybe you can help me find one.

Find your own fish ...

... hehehe ...

... but seriously folks ...

... granted, I'm one of the evil, foul, greedy, profiteering, fish killing, reef destroying, money-grumbing, mis- mythinformation spouting, never to be trusted LFS folks, but ... a LOCAL source, where you can actually eyeball the specimen is ... IMO ... the best place to get a specimen, especially one for which you might be shelling out the big bucks. I loathe trusting other people to make judgements about skin/scale integrity, eye clarity, fin tissue clarity, body mass, body tone, cranial flesh mass, lateral line integrity, respiration, gill functioning, fecal excreta ... yes, fecal excreta ... swimming equilibrium, personality, food intake, correct ID, geographic collection source, and pigmentation when it invovles what will be MY specimen. It's the one thing that an LFS with good staff can still be really good at ... along with communicating correct, comprehensive information & providing excellent customer support (the same thing, really) ... even as ecommerce continues to destroy the classic "concept" and revenue/expense patterns of "brick and mortor" stores.

If a good LFS in your area doesn't exist, then I recommend Dennis Reynolds at Aqua Marines. JMO ...

Aqua Marines
http://www.am4fish.com

... a healthy one from the RED SEA!

I personally prefer the lighter purple pigmentation of Solomon Island specimens, but hey ... nothing at all wrong with Red Sea specimens. Red Sea specimens might actually prefer ZEO systems, given the slightly higher salinity that we sometimes experience.

2. What do you think about the copperband? i know they are hard to find eating too, but are they that agressive? will they work with wrasses in your experience?

I love Indian Ocean Copperbands ... much better coloration ... IMO ... than the Pacifc specimens, although Australian specimens are close. They have had zero interaction problems with Cirrhilabrus wrasses ... IME. I've found that supplementation of live blood worms and live brine shrimp, mixed in with frozen foods, helps to ween them away from the live stuff. Also, the microfauna on live rock is a good food source for them, although they'll be in direct competition with the wrasses. I've never trusted any butterfly around SPS ...

... but maybe I'm just paranoid ...

3. What about the foxface? do you think that could be keep with fairy wrasses? i know they are not that agressive as tangs?

I like Rabbitfish, but for me, they're a boring choice for utilization of my system's bioload and "carrying capacity" ... JMO. Compatability with the wrasses shouldn't ... shouldn't ... be an issue. The only problem I've really ever had with Rabbitfish ... other than being stung by them (first 3 dorsal spines are venomous) ... is that a few have developed a taste for polyps, especially mushrooms. Go figure ...

so out of the Regal, Copperband, or Foxface which do you think is better?

I'd go with the Regal ... and take my chances. Then again ...

... asking someone what specimens you should get for YOUR tank ... to me at least ... is kind of like asking someone who you should marry. Some questions you should answer for yourself ... hehe ...

JMO ... HTH ...

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